Poison Ivy isn't a villain

[Frontier]

No but what I'm saying is that characters like Ivy and Swamp Thing are not really doing anything evil

They are simply acting out the will of nature. They have their own sentience but the planet and the environment have a greater voice that needs to be respected
The hurricane or a flood would be natural disasters that human's can ignore. To avoid Ivy's ire would be to have better environmental practices and maybe not destroy the planet

Their intentions aren't evil, but that doesn't mean their methods for getting justice for Mother Earth are right or the best methods of going about what they're doing. Which is where we dip into evil (and this is mostly Ivy we're talking about here, Swampy can usually restrain himself better).

[Gaius]

You know this thread has really highlighted what a poor character Ivy is to be in the stand-in/voice for environmentalism in comics.

No wonder she and Harley are perfect fits for one another. Both think feeling sorry for themselves makes up for having body counts higher than war criminals, match made in Gotham.

[OopsIdiditagain]

Yeah when you don't have the power to demolish entire cities with your powers it take a while to rack up a body count. Ivy... Ivy's powers can rack up body counts FAST when she's trying. Cheshire doesn't have that kind of power.

You don't need to be a plant-powered supervillainess to demolish cities when bombs exist. But even if Cheshire didn't have access to that, she's one of DC's best toxicologists. She could poison an entire city's water supply. But those are terrorist acts, and unlike Poison Ivy, Cheshire Cat is not a genocidal terrorist.

[OopsIdiditagain]

If a Hurricane demolishes an entire city who is at fault the hurricane or the people who chose to stay in their homes and ride it out?
Ivy is basically a force of nature, She isn't a petty assassin like Cheshire

At least when a character's a petty assassin people acknowledge their actions are bad. With Poison Ivy we have people justifying mass murder because it's done with a noble cause.

You know this thread has really highlighted what a truly terrible character Ivy is to be in the stand-in/voice for environmentalism in comics.

No wonder she and Harley are perfect fits for one another. Both think feeling sorry for themselves makes up for having body counts higher than war criminals, match made in Gotham.

I wonder how Poison Ivy would do at the Hague.

[marhawkman]

You don't need to be a plant-powered supervillainess to demolish cities when bombs exist. But even if Cheshire didn't have access to that, she's one of DC's best toxicologists. She could poison an entire city's water supply. But those are terrorist acts, and unlike Poison Ivy, Cheshire Cat is not a genocidal terrorist.

You mean Jade Nguyen? https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Cheshire
Genociadal? no.... She prefers to choose targets VERY carefully. Well she's an assassin, it's literally her job.

[Frontier]

You know this thread has really highlighted what a poor character Ivy is to be in the stand-in/voice for environmentalism in comics.

No wonder she and Harley are perfect fits for one another. Both think feeling sorry for themselves makes up for having body counts higher than war criminals, match made in Gotham.

To be honest I don't think Ivy and Harley naturally feel sorry for themselves. That's more outside perspective regarding them than anything else. They're pretty unrepentant about the stuff they do and how it effects people.

[Agent Z]

No but what I'm saying is that characters like Ivy and Swamp Thing are not really doing anything evil

They are simply acting out the will of nature. They have their own sentience but the planet and the environment have a greater voice that needs to be respected
The hurricane or a flood would be natural disasters that human's can ignore. To avoid Ivy's ire would be to have better environmental practices and maybe not destroy the planet

Swamp Thing is nothing like Poison Ivy. For one thing, he has never attempted genocide.

Ivy claims to be acting out the will of nature. Swamp Thing actually has been selected to defend the environment. And surprise, his methods are very different from Ivy's.

[prepmaster]

Ivy in contrast has been forced to become a plant human hybrid and basically hear the planet dying all the time. Instead of letting this continue all the time in a system that keeps the status quo like Batman she has done things to level the playing field.

Originally Ivy was not a character that could feel the earth. It was later on that they made her a character that can feel the pain of the plants in her surroundings. It makes her a more sympathetic chararcter but if your go to reaction to people who harm plants is to murder them then your morality is not that of a good guy.

In real life, if you kill someone for destroying your plant pod, i dont think it would be good enough reason.

[John Venus]

At this point, it just might be best to shift Ivy into full anti-hero category and use Jason Woodrue if you want a villainous eco-terrorist character.

[marhawkman]

At this point, it just might be best to shift Ivy into full anti-hero category and use Jason Woodrue if you want a villainous eco-terrorist character.

Well how do you even define eco-terrorist anyways?

[Rac7d*]

At this point, it just might be best to shift Ivy into full anti-hero category and use Jason Woodrue if you want a villainous eco-terrorist character.

That changes Ivy completely
She is not a villain anymore she is just Harley girlfriend which all we have seen her be for the last 4 years. No happy ending can occur if they are bad guys.

[prepmaster]

No happy ending can occur if they are bad guys.

Its fiction. Didnt DC publish a comics where Harley and Ivy live together happily until one of them dies of old age?

Anyway the problem is that some writers want to humanize a character like Ivy but do not understand the character enough to make her humane aspects compelling. The relationship between Harley and Ivy is too perfect for the two people who are more violent than normal humans. The writers make the characters too much like them or their fans instead of retaining the characters for who they are.

I also find it strange that DC chooses two characters with villainous backgrounds to be like their flagship LGBT couple. I guess its just based on popularity of a ship.

[kjn]

I also find it strange that DC chooses two characters with villainous backgrounds to be like their flagship LGBT couple. I guess its just based on popularity of a ship.

I'm pretty sure that DC never made that choice, and that if they had made one they'd have chosen a different couple. But they never made one, indeed some within DC's editorial structure were apparently dead set against any such choice, so the fen did the choice for them.

I can't say the fen were wrong in doing so.

[Nite-Wing]

Swamp Thing is nothing like Poison Ivy. For one thing, he has never attempted genocide.

Ivy claims to be acting out the will of nature. Swamp Thing actually has been selected to defend the environment. And surprise, his methods are very different from Ivy's.

They have both been selected/acknowledged based on their methods
They prioritize the marginalization of plants and nature who has no one advocating for them on the planet compared to humanity

The days of the evil interpretation towards Ivy's methods are done. Even Swamp Thing has basically been turned more aggressive and won't be out of place smacking batman around or another hero if they get in his way
The difference between them is minute nowadays
The types of stories where Ivy is seducing men to gain money/influence so that she can be worshipped/rich/create paradise etc are becoming fewer and fewer

[Arctic Cyclist]

image.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpg

Her being a villain is a matter of personal opinion. However, her being a serial killer isn't.

Source: Detective Comics 823, November 2006

As an aside, Harvest is a fantastic element to bring into Queen Ivy. They won't of course, as DC's policy about unredeemable female villains is that they must be characters of color and Harvest is comprised of white people. But a creation of the Green and Ivy's victims that loathes Ivy? Great story element. It's a shame Bruce dumped weed killer on it.