Batwoman #34 Discussion *Spoilers*

[Oberon]

Hi Chickfighter and other fans of Bette!

I have to confess I've stuck with this book since its inception but a part of that was because after reading Elegy, I was fascinated with the idea of Flamebird and Batwoman becoming partners, just like Bette/y was/may have been in the early '60s comics.

And I've appreciated Morrison's use of her (flashbacks) in the Batman INC.

Having said that, I do believe that she is either being marginalized out of the book, or possibly another reinvention. Several issues back when Bette was taking it easy after she broke ribs fighting Wolf Spider, we see her doing ops for her cousin, and I had a weird vibe that maybe they would make her into the new Oracle. This would not be pleasing to me, if they did, and I'm certain there are many Babs/Oracle fans who still resent her revisiting as Batgirl.

Since there seem to be any number of Robins, why can there not be extra Batgirls?

Personally I would prefer she go back to Flamebird, and lose the fire tanks angle.

[Punisher007]

Hi Chickfighter and other fans of Bette!

I have to confess I've stuck with this book since its inception but a part of that was because after reading Elegy, I was fascinated with the idea of Flamebird and Batwoman becoming partners, just like Bette/y was/may have been in the early '60s comics.

And I've appreciated Morrison's use of her (flashbacks) in the Batman INC.

Having said that, I do believe that she is either being marginalized out of the book, or possibly another reinvention. Several issues back when Bette was taking it easy after she broke ribs fighting Wolf Spider, we see her doing ops for her cousin, and I had a weird vibe that maybe they would make her into the new Oracle. This would not be pleasing to me, if they did, and I'm certain there are many Babs/Oracle fans who still resent her revisiting as Batgirl.

Since there seem to be any number of Robins, why can there not be extra Batgirls?

Personally I would prefer she go back to Flamebird, and lose the fire tanks angle.

IDK, DC seems to have no problem having multiple Robins or former Robins running around, but they're obsessed with this idea that Barbara is the "one true Batgirl." It's a discrepancy/double-standard that they still have yet to really explain/address.

[Rakzo]

Thought this was a pretty strong issue character-wise.

Kate and Maggie breaking-up doesn't bother me that much since I didn't find their relationship particularly interesting to begin with.

[Punisher007]

I don't particular care for spoilers:

How Nocturna discovered Kate's identity (really her mask comes off that easily, no just no.

end of spoilers

I also don't like Kate's reaction to it, it just didn't sound like Kate. I feel like she's been depicted as a little too amateurish recently, and her reactions aren't helping that notion.

[Punisher007]

It was bound to happen once editorial made their feelings about the marriage clear, which is a shame, but Andreyko handled it very tastefully. It's the usual "sacrifice" route, but at least he gave us an angle we've probably never seen before in comics with Jamie's custody battle featuring a lesbian mother. And it seems like Maggie will still be a player in Gotham, so she's not going anywhere and they left the option open for a reunion.

I gotta say the highlight from Andreyko's run has been his character work, especially with Kate. The book had gotten way too crowded with the previous creative team and it was a smart move to focus more on who Kate Kane is behind the mask. That said, the villains and overall plots have not been vey good. Hopefully the vampire stuff and the new group she's forming will change that now that he's free to move her in a whole new direction.

See I don't buy the logic behind her doing it (on several fronts) and I feel like it's kind of condescending towards Maggie and removes any kind of agency from her. spoilers:

Also, she breaks up using a freaking note. I'm sorry, but you don't do that to someone that you CLAIM to love (at least do it face to face). That was a mistake on Andreyko's part, it makes Kate look really bad when I think the idea is that it's supposed to be some selfless sacrifice.

end of spoilers

[Shimbo]

I don't particular care for spoilers:

How Nocturna discovered Kate's identity (really her mask comes off that easily, no just no.

end of spoilers

I also don't like Kate's reaction to it, it just didn't sound like Kate. I feel like she's been depicted as a little too amateurish recently, and her reactions aren't helping that notion.

Andreyko's plot necessitated that happen, although I agree that it shouldn't have happened.

I do agree that Kate has been coming across as less...experienced lately. One of the reasons I enjoyed the first creative team is that Kate was shown to be competent in an analogous way to Bruce. But then the annual, we have Bruce speaking in that paternalistic tone "I knew you'd do the right thing" and just being down right condescending "I think I'll let you stay in the city". And Kate just went along with it. Like, wut? I'm not saying Kate should be able to take Bruce on in a one on one fight or be shown to take down some of his rogues like they aren't a big deal, but her pre-N52 history still stands. This is still the same woman who got stabbed in the heart, took out the knife, and used it to fight back. The woman who has been dealing with supernatural threats for a while now. There's no need to job her or demean her as a competent fighter and vigilante to make Bruce look good. Neither should we job Bruce to make Kate look better, either. I hope the next arc brings us a more seasoned Kate. She really shouldn't be having trouble with spider burglars and random mercenaries.

[Punisher007]

I'm fine with spoilers:

Nocturna finding out Kate's identity

end of spoilers (although that ending scene left me REALLY conflicted). I just don't like the WAY that it happened. He could have easily come up with an alternate way for it to happen without compromising Kate's competency. It'd be the best of both worlds.

[MajorHoy]

spoilers:

Also, she breaks up using a freaking note. I'm sorry, but you don't do that to someone that you CLAIM to love (at least do it face to face). That was a mistake on Andreyko's part, it makes Kate look really bad when I think the idea is that it's supposed to be some selfless sacrifice.

end of spoilers

Don't people now spoilers:

post that information on facebook pages instead these days

end of spoilers?

[Shimbo]

I'm fine with spoilers:

Nocturna finding out Kate's identity

end of spoilers (although that ending scene left me REALLY conflicted). I just don't like the WAY that it happened. He could have easily come up with an alternate way for it to happen without compromising Kate's competency. It'd be the best of both worlds.

Yeah, definitely. I also wonder when/how the Nocturna stuff is going to be addressed in the upcoming issues. Kate's on some supernatural-ish team that goes into space...is Kate actually going to become a vampire? Will she mind bullied into a relationship with Nocturna? I'd rather Kate not be a vampire, but...I guess she'd be different from every other vigilante in Gotham. That lesbian vampire trope though...

[Chickfighter]

Hi Chickfighter and other fans of Bette!

I have to confess I've stuck with this book since its inception but a part of that was because after reading Elegy, I was fascinated with the idea of Flamebird and Batwoman becoming partners, just like Bette/y was/may have been in the early '60s comics.

And I've appreciated Morrison's use of her (flashbacks) in the Batman INC.

Having said that, I do believe that she is either being marginalized out of the book, or possibly another reinvention. Several issues back when Bette was taking it easy after she broke ribs fighting Wolf Spider, we see her doing ops for her cousin, and I had a weird vibe that maybe they would make her into the new Oracle. This would not be pleasing to me, if they did, and I'm certain there are many Babs/Oracle fans who still resent her revisiting as Batgirl.

Since there seem to be any number of Robins, why can there not be extra Batgirls?

Personally I would prefer she go back to Flamebird, and lose the fire tanks angle.

Yeah, I definitely would like to go backwards on the name and costume change there, particularly the gas tanks. Modern comics sometimes even make me reminiscent for the Flamebird who got into crime fighting because she had a crush on Robin. I know everyone thinks that silly, but at least it was upbeat and not the same old tortured anti-hero thing that it feels every character has become. When the title started I too had hoped something more like that version of Flamebird would be the upside of a Batwoman and Flamebird dynamic duo, a balance to Batwoman's darkness. I've long since realized that is not going to happen. It is interesting to hear you think Bette might be being marginalized. So much for Williams effort to make the character more viable through personal suffering. There's always next reboot. Heh.

[Oberon]

I liked it in the beginning of the book, but in more recent episodes I felt it lost the realistic feel.

[Oberon]

Andreyko's plot necessitated that happen, although I agree that it shouldn't have happened.

I do agree that Kate has been coming across as less...experienced lately. One of the reasons I enjoyed the first creative team is that Kate was shown to be competent in an analogous way to Bruce. But then the annual, we have Bruce speaking in that paternalistic tone "I knew you'd do the right thing" and just being down right condescending "I think I'll let you stay in the city". And Kate just went along with it. Like, wut? I'm not saying Kate should be able to take Bruce on in a one on one fight or be shown to take down some of his rogues like they aren't a big deal, but her pre-N52 history still stands. This is still the same woman who got stabbed in the heart, took out the knife, and used it to fight back. The woman who has been dealing with supernatural threats for a while now. There's no need to job her or demean her as a competent fighter and vigilante to make Bruce look good. Neither should we job Bruce to make Kate look better, either. I hope the next arc brings us a more seasoned Kate. She really shouldn't be having trouble with spider burglars and random mercenaries.

Agree totally. I don't just like this book for Bette, Kate's story, motivations etc are very important part of the book. Whether we care to admit it or not, she is Batman as a female. (not quite so serious, but yeah, somewhat).

I also miss the plot/situations with her father. I feel that if the backstories and their significance were given more presence (Bette and Jake) this book would be more interesting to me. Even Bruce has more interchange with the regular characters of his books.

[Oberon]

Yeah, I definitely would like to go backwards on the name and costume change there, particularly the gas tanks. Modern comics sometimes even make me reminiscent for the Flamebird who got into crime fighting because she had a crush on Robin. I know everyone thinks that silly, but at least it was upbeat and not the same old tortured anti-hero thing that it feels every character has become. When the title started I too had hoped something more like that version of Flamebird would be the upside of a Batwoman and Flamebird dynamic duo, a balance to Batwoman's darkness. I've long since realized that is not going to happen. It is interesting to hear you think Bette might be being marginalized. So much for Williams effort to make the character more viable through personal suffering. There's always next reboot. Heh.

You got it right, friend. A book like this needs to have that lighthearted balance to Kate's moodiness. I remember in the very first few issues when Kate made Bette 'plebe' and had to wear the plain outfit etc. It was funny, but it so fit in with Kate's driven, desperate-ish nature. I miss that.
While it was good for Flamebird to have her trial with the meat hook guy (I liked/loathed it at first, to begin with) "the answer" was to beef her up with tech. Why? Kate didn't have to get flame throwers after her heart was stabbed.
The Waynes, the Kanes are a lot tougher than most.


and yeah, I miss the possibility of some sort of meet up between Nightwing, the man was the first Robin, and Flamebird, the woman who was the first Bat-girl.

They could have even used it jokingly, just a recurring side joke, with Kate playfully reminding her that Bette gave Dick his first kiss.
Before the rest of you start in, Morrison confirms Bette (to my satisfaction at least) as the Bat-girl who ran around with the first Batwoman. I loved some of those flashbacks in Batman Inc that showed that.

[Punisher007]

That last scene really didn't due it to me. As a fan of the horror genre, I'm well aware of the "lesbian vampire trope." But sexual assault (and that's pretty much what this was) against female characters is a REALLY overused/problematic clichés in comics. And it bothers me a lot more more since I read an interview about the FE issue where Kate is identified as "having been Nocturna's lover." Really, just really? Did the Ms. Marvel fiasco teach them how the whole "I had a romance with my rapist" storyline is a BAD IDEA? Seriously, that's what they're going with, God I hope not.

[MichaelC]

Well, whatever else it did it got more eyes on this book. I wasn't reading this book, didn't even know it existed until I started hearing people complain about it. Now I've bought this issue and will likely buy at least two more to see if I enjoy this new direction.