Has Spider-Man become Marvel's poor man version of Batman?

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

That's still Moon Knight .

[PeterParked]

You mean the "benchmark" but yeah he used to be. But the X-Men were the defining benchmark in the '80s. And then Immortal Hulk became the benchmark. So Batman's had his highs but he's also had lows lately, and then the Pandemic happened and DC pulled out of Diamond to "go it alone".

Who knows how things are now.

Immortal Hulk has never been the benchmark for sales, it sold well but never at the level of Batman. Spider Man may have had one record game, but comics wise Batman sells regularly more and it is also able to keep around a successful family of books, from secondary and tertiary Batman books, to its extend family of co-characters (nightwing, robin, cat woman, birds of prey, joker etc.). Saying that Spider Man is bigger than Batman based on a videogame sales and ignoring the success of Batman in comics, it’s movie franchise etc. it’s not correct. What distinguish Batman from other comics is exactly that regardless of who is hot in a specific moment, x-men, venom, hulk, image and so on, it’s always up there with them. Tom King’s Batman at its lowest still sold numbers that have always been considered successful for Amazing.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Immortal Hulk has never been the benchmark for sales, it sold well but never at the level of Batman.

Timestamp 13:00 to 15:00 where an actual comics store owner and a respected comics scholar (who has interviewed many professionals) proves Hulk's achievement.

Spider Man may have had one record game, but comics wise Batman sells regularly more and it is also able to keep around a successful family of books, from secondary and tertiary Batman books, to its extend family of co-characters (nightwing, robin, cat woman, birds of prey, joker etc.).

An achievement that has to be qualified by DC not doing much or anything to bolster other characters whereas Spider-Man has proven himself against a locker room of fellow Marvel-ites like X-Men, Avengers, and more recently Immortal Hulk.

Saying that Spider Man is bigger than Batman based on a videogame sales and ignoring the success of Batman in comics, it’s movie franchise etc. it’s not correct.

Spider-Man has only started making feature films since 2002, Batman had a head start in 1989 (released 50 years after his debut) and had four features by the time Raimi's first film came in 2002. So Batman has had the ad

I'd also point out that Batman's most successful films star and feature Joker (Batman'89, The Dark Knight, Joker 2019) whereas films with other villains do well but don't turn up impressive numbers. This also extends to successful adaptations of Batman (the Arkham Games, the DCAU cartoons) which focus and advertise Joker significantly. A movie with a Batman and Superman team-up didn't make as much money or profit as a 2hour Joaquin Phoenix vanity movie where he dresses as the Joker. Spider-Man though had a movie with Mysterio earn big money.

I am not saying Batman isn't successful, I am just saying it's ridiculous to call Spider-Man anybody else's poor-man's version. It's like assuming that Batman is far above him when Spider-Man as a brand is practically equal if not greater than his.

Tom King’s Batman at its lowest still sold numbers that have always been considered successful for Amazing.

At its lowest Tom King's Batman sold about 58,000 copies which was a trendline drop unprecedented in the title's modern history and far higher than DC's usual drop-rate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lzqx1mfXD-I&t=9s

I'd say your research is out of step with recent events.

[Frontier]

I honestly don't get the problem with heroes with the same power set in the same "family" I mean, there are a bunch of guys with basically the same power sets that aren't related, so I'm not sure why groups like the Spider-family receive such backlash

It's not necessarily a problem on paper, but in practice bunching them together tends to make them (or particularly Peter) come off as redundant.

[Orbus]

I don't know if having a group of similarly themes allies is strictly enough of a Batman thing that Spider-Man having them means he is a "poor man's Batman" but it's not like we even see them all that much in Amazing for it to even bother anyone. It seems both Slott and now Spencer just save them for the big Spider themed events like the Red Goblin arc and now Last Remains and whatever Spencer has planned next.

I've always liked the idea of Peter having some superhero allies he can call on even when not a member of the Avengers. Johnny Storm (and the rest of the FF), Daredevil, Wolverine heck as much as it rankles peoples because of the MCU Tony Stark. I've also been a fan of the idea of him being better friends with Iceman and Firestar as an Amazing Friends homage. But all this is dependent on what is going on on those other franchises. While Miles and Gwen have their own books most of the Spider family don't and he call upon them when he needs help anytime he wants.

It's not necessarily a problem on paper, but in practice bunching them together tends to make them (or particularly Peter) come off as redundant.

I'd argue it hasn't so far. Even the ones with ongoing titles tend to keep to their own corner of Marvel Universe (or multiverse) until there is a Spider themed event. Their all unique as characters that they all stand apart from each other.

[CosmiComic]

It's not necessarily a problem on paper, but in practice bunching them together tends to make them (or particularly Peter) come off as redundant.

But aren't Miles Morales and Spider-Gwen fairly different?

[Frontier]

I don't know if having a group of similarly themes allies is strictly enough of a Batman thing that Spider-Man having them means he is a "poor man's Batman" but it's not like we even see them all that much in Amazing for it to even bother anyone. It seems both Slott and now Spencer just save them for the big Spider themed events like the Red Goblin arc and now Last Remains and whatever Spencer has planned next.

It's not strictly a Batman thing but it was pretty much popularized and iconified by Batman.

I think their use in Slott and Spencer's run in big events show probably the main issue when trying to incorporate them into the main Spider-Man narrative.

I've always liked the idea of Peter having some superhero allies he can call on even when not a member of the Avengers. Johnny Storm (and the rest of the FF), Daredevil, Wolverine heck as much as it rankles peoples because of the MCU Tony Stark. I've also been a fan of the idea of him being better friends with Iceman and Firestar as an Amazing Friends homage. But all this is dependent on what is going on on those other franchises. While Miles and Gwen have their own books most of the Spider family don't and he call upon them when he needs help anytime he wants.

This is why it's difficult to work these other Spiders into Peter's orbit because, aside from them being independent, he just doesn't know them as well as he does his supporting cast or other heroes.

I'd argue it hasn't so far. Even the ones with ongoing titles tend to keep to their own corner of Marvel Universe (or multiverse) until there is a Spider themed event. Their all unique as characters that they all stand apart from each other.

But, again, that's not always reflect so much in actual stories. Like in the cartoons or in stuff like Last Remains. They're far better off independent in their solo books but that doesn't tend to correlate exactly with franchise/genre expectations.

But aren't Miles Morales and Spider-Gwen fairly different?

Personality and family-wise, yeah.

[CosmiComic]

I guess the solution would to be to try to develop them independently

The thing is not every hero has a rogues gallery, though

[Killerbee911]

Wouldn't it hurt Batman worse and make him come off as redundant with his family of characters around. Being that Batman has no superpowers so a human doing what he does is should be special but when every sidekick comes along does not go through the ridiculous training that he did to become Batman and does not have his amazing mind BUT still does pretty much what he does it devalues Batman and makes him redundant? If it hasn't been a net negative for Batman, I don't see how harmful it would be to Spiderman.

[Darthfury78]

This is why it's difficult to work these other Spiders into Peter's orbit because, aside from them being independent, he just doesn't know them as well as he does his supporting cast or other heroes.

I think that Julia Carpenter and Jessica Drew would fit into Peter's orbit, along with The Black Widow. I could see Peter working alongside Julia, Jessica, and Natasha respectively if the writers take the time to incorporating them in a story arc as they have done with Black Cat. At least Batman gets to work with Batwoman, Batgirl, and Huntress respectively...

If Natasha, Julia, and Jessica got to know Peter Parker(respectively), they would find that he's just like them....

[NC_Yankee]

I think that Julia Carpenter and Jessica Drew would fit into Peter's orbit, along with The Black Widow. I could see Peter working alongside Julia, Jessica, and Natasha respectively if the writers take the time to incorporating them in a story arc as they have done with Black Cat. At least Batman gets to work with Batwoman, Batgirl, and Huntress respectively...

If Natasha, Julia, and Jessica got to know Peter Parker(respectively), they would find that he's just like them....

In a word NO. “I’m not Bruce, I’m Batman.” That quote sums up the biggest difference between Bruce Wayne and Peter Parker( even more then economics). Bruce Wayne is Batman first and Peter Parker is Spider-Man second. One other thing that Peter has is a great supporting cast ( MJ, JJJ, Aunt May even Boomerang and Theresa), there is no need to force other characters into Amazing. As for The Avengers I cannot believe a couple of posters here. Peter was never treated as an equal in The Avengers. He was either Comedy Relief ( 616) or “The Kid” ( MCU). I do not mind him with the FF because he is treated as an equal.

[PCN24454]

I guess the solution would to be to try to develop them independently

The thing is not every hero has a rogues gallery, though

That's a solution? Feels more like a cop-out.

[CosmiComic]

That's a solution? Feels more like a cop-out.

I thought that's what everyone's asking for

[FFJamie94]

In terms of involvement in their respective universes? No. They have different approaches and are entirely different characters. If anything, I'll say Batman is more similar to Daredevil with go writers approach him.
The Spider family is something that is an unfortunate side effect of the popularity of Spider-verse.
That opened the doors to way too many Spider characters. Plus, the Bat family stems from Bruce Wayne while the Spider family stems from the powers.
Personal opinion, there's no need to have as many Spider characters. Keeps Peter, Miles and a Spider Woman and delete the rest. Having Miles around also helps with Peter Parker in a big way, as it means that editors are more likely to allow him to grow.

In terms of popularity and marketability in the real world, kind of. It's arguable. Spider-man is no doubt Marvel's hottest franchise, but a part of me asks how long will he be? For a time, it looked like Iron Man was going to overtake him, I'd argue with a fourth Iron Man, there was a chance that he could have over taken him.
While Batman will always be DC's #1.
Even with that said, Batman needs a big push forward, because I feel Batman is mostly #1 these days because of Joker, and there needs to be more interesting ideas out there than just falling behind on The Joker.
While Spider-man is popular because of Spider-man, no matter who you throw in a movie.

It's arguable, I'll say Spider-man is way more popular than Batman in many ways.
But it's hard to compare Marvel and DC 1 to 1. Especially with their more popular characters.

[CrimsonEchidna]

A diverse selection of Spider books + bad Venom comics is better than 5 Peter books + bad Venom comics

I mean, it's a Darthfury thread so it's going to eventually boil down to "Why don't they use ______ characters as the family instead of ______?"

Like he comes up with a new thread title just to mask beating the same dead horse.