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  1. #1
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Default Barbara Minerva: To blame or not to blame for her transformation?

    I had posted this message in another thread but it was a bit off topic and I though it would be fun to talk about it further but that wasn't the place to do it.

    I've seen people argue Rebirth Barbara tricked into becocoming Cheetah through Cale (both times), and I've seen people argue that it was Barbara own hubris that led her down this path. I think Barbara's origin was left morally grey buy Rucka on purpose, but now that Rebirth has been out for a while we can go back and do a retrospective study.

    I'll list the issue # so you can go back and re-read those moments yourself and see if you come to the same conclusion. I do recommend re-reading the run though, there's a lot of subtlety between Diana and Barbara's exchanges.
    (I'm leaning towards the side of it being 100 Barbara's fault, but I love hearing other people's perspectives)


    Vol. 5 #18, Phobos and Demos specifically say they want to "encourage", not "cause" Barbara's apotheosis (love that word). They only want Cale to speed up the process through her funding and prevent Wonder Woman's interference, but they have no doubt Barbara will accept Urzkartaga's offer. Barbara also repeats over and over again how she HAS to find a god, despite Diana's warnings. The book makes it clear that Barbara is stubborn and determined, she went globetrotting for years by herself to try and find the Amazons (#8). Whether Cale funded her or not, she would have found some way to get to the temple.

    Vol 5, #3, Diana specifically calls out Barbara on her actions and accountability. Barbara keeps trying to push the blame on Diana, but Diana is clearly not having any of it.
    We later learn in issue #22 that Diana had known of Cale's involvement, but she still clearly states that Barbara is not without blame for her transformation.

    In issue #19 when Diana learned that Barbara had turned back into Cheetah, she implies that that was her desire all along. Barbara going to Cale to save her friends was more or less an excuse to see Cale again. Btw, I have not doubt Barbara genuinely wanted to help Etta and Steve, but she doesn't even try to run when Team Poison shows up (#15). (Granted, she had a lame leg, so maybe she figured she couldn't)
    It was also Barbara's credit card that outed their location to Cale. (I bolded this because I think it's an important detail that is glossed over.) Was it intentional or not? Well again, she didn't try to run when they showed up, she didn't even look surprised. Also Cheetah had worked with Cale for years and didn't know she had technology that would allow her access to this information? It's not uncommon knowledge at all that you can be tracked through credit card transactions.
    Diana also didn't seem shocked at her transformation back into Cheetah either, she even speculated that Barbara had become Cheetah again the moment she noticed she wasn't with the team.

    Also remember, it was never becoming Cheetah that bothered Barbara, it was just the curse of unending hunger and desire to eat human flesh part that bothered her. We later see this doesn't bother her anymore in #750 when we see her worshippers dragging away a human carcasses that she didn't look too upset about consuming.

    She was also given some chances to turn back and refused. (#24 and #750). She only wanted to be free of the curse, not the Cheetah (remember the power of Cheetah is not the curse, it's Barbara uncontrollably bloodlust that is the curse, and it is unique to her.)

    There's a lot of grey area both the first time and second time Barbara transformed. We don't know if she found the temple all on her own or if she was led into a trap (like the Perez origin).
    We don't know if she called Diana before or after she was cursed.
    We don't know if Urzkartaga forced her or if she was 100% willing.

    This is an important moment to her character that could shift her from being a lot more innocent or a lot more guilty. And it just left as a black hole by Rucka and I don't think that's a accident.

    For the second transformation, we don't know if Barbara wanted Cale to find her or if it was an accident (she knew Cale had Urzkartaga) it was her fault they were found regardless.

    I'm of the mind that Barbara was destined to become Cheetah the moment Diana arrived. And I think she would have become Cheetah again the second time even without the push from Cale.



    Also side note: Whether Rebirth Barbara innocent or not, she is arguably more to blame for her current condition than Post-crisis Barbara.

    PC Barbara was looking for the City of Urzkartaga, she didn't know there was a real god, she wanted the artifacts at the temple.
    Rebirth Barbara was looking for a god in particular, maybe to gain powers, maybe not. Urzkartaga himself says Barbara coveted Diana's divinity (vol. 5, #7) he's been known to lie though.

    It's true PC Barbara jumped at the chance to become Cheetah, but did she really have a choice? There were dozens of bandits in the area with guns. She didn't kill Leavens until after she learned the bandits were returning. If she didn't kill Leavens to become Cheetah, they both would have died.
    We don't really know the context in which Rebirth Barbara transformed, but Diana certainly doesn't find her blameless and I think that speaks volumes. Is Barbara really innocent, or is she just craftier than anyone gives her credit for?

    (Also New 52 Barbara is the most innocent out of all 3 because she was brainwashed at a young age from being raised in a cult and her aunt forced her to become Cheetah by telling her to stab herself.)
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 03-17-2021 at 11:48 AM.

  2. #2
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    This is a fantastic analysis btw, I'm glad you started this thread.

    I'm of the belief that Barbara needs to have a strong vice that subconsciously drives her decisions. For me that vice is usually greed, so I fall in the camp that while she was originally accepting of the Cheetah powers it was the curse that drove her to seeking help. I think if she just had the power and ability to transform at will, she'd be enjoying herself.
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  3. #3
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    I prefer Rebirth Barbara but one advantage I'd give the Post-Crisis version is that she was able to switch back-and-forth, so it made it possible Barbara could be just as much as a threat/menace to Diana in both forms.

  4. #4
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I prefer Rebirth Barbara but one advantage I'd give the Post-Crisis version is that she was able to switch back-and-forth, so it made it possible Barbara could be just as much as a threat/menace to Diana in both forms.
    Part of me would like if Rebirth Barbara could switch back and forth, but if they did it might destroy the morally grey area that has stay (somewhat) consistent since Rebirth. I do think having human Barbara be against Diana could work, but it would be really hard without destroying that morally grey part of her character.

    Post-crisis Barbara also had a grey area, as well since she only killed criminals.........and then they tossed that in the toilet and I was like "oops, there goes an interesting aspect of her character" because she wasn't an anti-hero who killed criminals, she was a super villain who killed criminals.

    She didn't have any of that anti-hero morality of "I'm killing because some people don't deserve to live", she was like "I'm killing because I need sacrifices to live and no one will rush to find the murderer of these criminals." Plus she would hire the very criminals she intended to sacrifice which I thought was a fun angle. Might as well make them do some of your dirty work before you off 'em am I right?
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 03-17-2021 at 12:29 PM.

  5. #5
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Excellent write up!

    I forgot all about the credit card thing, but that reminds me that Barbara mentions she knows about Dr. Cyber. Was she expecting Adrianna to track her?

  6. #6
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Part of me would like if Rebirth Barbara could switch back and forth, but if they did it might destroy the morally grey area that has stay (somewhat) consistent since Rebirth. I do think having human Barbara be against Diana could work, but it would be really hard without destroying that morally grey part of her character.

    Post-crisis Barbara also had a grey area, as well since she only killed criminals.........and then they tossed that in the toilet and I was like "oops, there goes an interesting aspect of her character" because she wasn't an anti-hero who killed criminals, she was a super villain who killed criminals.

    She didn't have any of that anti-hero morality of "I'm killing because some people don't deserve to live", she was like "I'm killing because I need sacrifices to live and no one will rush to find the murderer of these criminals." Plus she would hire the very criminals she intended to sacrifice which I thought was a fun angle. Might as well make them do some of your dirty work before you off 'em am I right?
    Interesting, I re-read through the Perez run recently but didn't pick up on that. Guess I was colored retroactively by later writers dropping that aspect. Rucka in particular is night and day on his writing of her between his two runs, though I guess in the latter he had the benefit of a clean slate.

  7. #7
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Excellent write up!

    I forgot all about the credit card thing, but that reminds me that Barbara mentions she knows about Dr. Cyber. Was she expecting Adrianna to track her?
    I think she was, but it was written in such a way that it could have been a genuine accident. Etta was injured, perhaps Barbara panicked and bought stuff without thinking about it.

    Interestingly though it looks like they tracked Barbara's credit card to the model her and Etta were staying at. You can see Team Poison interrogating someone and I think it's the model clerk, it's honestly hard to tell. (Issue #15)

    But yeah, if Barbara used her credit card to rent a room at the model they were hiding out in...well she just dropped her exact location into Cale's lap. That's reeeeeeeal convenient, that is...
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 03-17-2021 at 01:18 PM.

  8. #8
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Interesting, I re-read through the Perez run recently but didn't pick up on that. Guess I was colored retroactively by later writers dropping that aspect. Rucka in particular is night and day on his writing of her between his two runs, though I guess in the latter he had the benefit of a clean slate.
    Yeah, Rucka tried to turn Cheetah into a sexual predator in his first run....

    Get it! Sexual Predator! Cuz she's a cat and cats are predators and she's sexually assaulting The Flash despite that never being an aspect of her character before Rucka, and he clearly thought he was being clever but....like, Rucka c'mon...what is this... She's already a murderer, cannibal, trespasser and thief, she doesn't need to be a sexual assaulter on top of all that to be a villain.

    I think he said he was planting the seeds for some story arc involving Cheetah and that's why Urzkartaga was punishing Barbara by making her bloodlust worse and turning her left hand back into a human hand. But he was cheated out of that story like the rest of his run. Thanks DC editorial (I wrote that sarcastically). I didn't like that characterization of her, so I'm not too upset he didn't get to finish that storyline, although I am curious about were he was going with her.

    He's second attempt, far superior in my opinion. And he left the sexual predator aspect out of it, thank goodness.
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 03-17-2021 at 01:47 PM.

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Yeah, Rucka tried to turn Cheetah into a sexual predator in his first run....

    Get it! Sexual Predator! Cuz she's a cat and cats are predators and she's sexually assaulting The Flash despite that never being an aspect of her character before Rucka, and he clearly thought he was being clever but....like, Rucka c'mon...what is this... She's already a murderer, cannibal, trespasser and thief, she doesn't need to be a sexual assaulter on top of all that to be a villain.

    I think he said he was planting the seeds for some story arc involving Cheetah and that's why Urzkartaga was punishing Barbara by making her bloodlust worse and turning her left hand back into a human hand. But he was cheated out of that story like the rest of his run. Thanks DC editorial (I wrote that sarcastically). I didn't like that characterization of her, so I'm not too upset he didn't get to finish that storyline, although I am curious about were he was going with her.

    He's second attempt, far superior in my opinion. And he left the sexual predator aspect out of it, thank goodness.
    Yeah, the cat in heat Barbara was...weird. I wonder if that was supposed to be her way of getting back at Urzkartaga for punishing her? Perhaps her behavior would've made more sense if Rucka had the chance to finish the story.

    As for Rebirth Barbara, it's too vague for my tastes. Rucka implies that she's more culpable than it seems but we never actually see how her transformation happened. He or some other writer should elaborate more on that.
    Last edited by Psy-lock; 03-18-2021 at 01:44 AM.

  10. #10
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    I think Cheetah should be a deliberate being, and not a victim, and Geof Johns was clear on this.

    If Cheetah was a space-time-travelling super-villain, who mystically transfigured herself, into a cheetah-like monster, to better survive the forces of the time stream, ..I could fully fanboy on her. If she mystically transfigured herself, into a cheetah-like monster, so as to destroy anything, that threatened her, in her travels, ..that would be clever. I want to find out that Cheetah's ambition isn't some stupid trip to Paradise or a bikini wax, ..but, the conquest and destruction of worlds.

    The WW TV show had a super-villain, named Cassandra Loren, who left a pacifistic future Earth to pursue fortune and power, in Earth's past. Movie Barbara seems like a similarly motivated character to me. Either way, Geoff Johns understood the most important thing about writing Cheetah - that Bar Minerva is the monster. I really don't care much that she's not technically all-Cheetah, but resembles a cheetah, has great speed and probably picked the name up, in her travels.

    Cheetah isn't a persona, ..so much, as a weapon.
    COMBINING THE BIGBADITUDE OF THANOS WITH CHEETAH'S FEROCITY, IS JANUS WONDER WOMAN'S GREATEST SUPERVILLAIN?...on WONDABUNGA!!! Look alive, Kangaliers!

  11. #11
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Cheetah not being a victim under Johns is rather debatable as, if I recall, she was raised by a cult. Not exactly a pseudo-sympathetic Harley Quinn situation. Barbara not being a particularly nice person pre-Cheetah curse goes to back to her creation with Perez

  12. #12
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Cheetah not being a victim under Johns is rather debatable as, if I recall, she was raised by a cult. Not exactly a pseudo-sympathetic Harley Quinn situation. Barbara not being a particularly nice person pre-Cheetah curse goes to back to her creation with Perez
    Johns had Cheetah come by the curse, having scratched her hand on an Urzkartarga idol, in JLA. Its later revealed, in the same story, that Barbara Minerva was a grifter and a murderess...had been her whole life, and that her inherent evil corrupted the Cheetah power, turning her into a monster.
    COMBINING THE BIGBADITUDE OF THANOS WITH CHEETAH'S FEROCITY, IS JANUS WONDER WOMAN'S GREATEST SUPERVILLAIN?...on WONDABUNGA!!! Look alive, Kangaliers!

  13. #13
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Yes, New 52 Cheetah was raised by a cult of misandry's who followed "amazon culture" and worshiped the goddess of the hunt, Artemis. She didn't become Cheetah of her own accord either, she was forced to become Cheetah by her aunt who made her stab herself in the heart with the godkiller knife.

    I don't know if that was Johns idea for Cheetah, since he didn't write her origin story, but that origin certainly retconned now much of her fault becoming Cheetah actually was.

  14. #14
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Johns had Cheetah come by the curse, having scratched her hand on an Urzkartarga idol, in JLA. Its later revealed, in the same story, that Barbara Minerva was a grifter and a murderess...had been her whole life, and that her inherent evil corrupted the Cheetah power, turning her into a monster.
    I kinda feel, with the current version of Barbara, that the Cheetah persona sort of became an excuse for Barbara to give into her worst impulses.

  15. #15
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    I kinda feel, with the current version of Barbara, that the Cheetah persona sort of became an excuse for Barbara to give into her worst impulses.
    Yeah, this is kind of why I’d want to see a story where we see her make the decision to become Cheetah from her POV.

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