Zack Snyder's Justice League *SPOILERS*

[TooFlyToFail]

I've now completed the whole trek and the end battle was definitely worlds better than the original, and I liked the epilogue(even if it was longer than it needed to be) but as a whole I think my initial impression still stands; there are the bones of an excellent super hero movie here...but the end product ultimately didn't achieve that.

There were some truly excellent scenes, scenes far greater than anything we were shown in the theatrical cut and perhaps their existence makes this version slightly better, but for all that, as a whole it's still kind of a mess. Steppenwolf did get some development here, his conversation(the first time you see it) gives some much needed back story to him and a glimpse at his motivations, and the visual of Desad appearing through melting metal was fantastic...but it was just a glimpse and still didn't really elevate him that much beyond just being a generic bad guy doing generic bad guy things for generic bad guy reasons. But on the other hand the Mother Boxes are still just generic Macguffins, in fact because of the added back story we got on Steppenwolf and how many planets he's already conquered in order to try and get back into Darkseid's good graces, and the epilogue where Darseid says gather the armada they appear to be more useless than they were before. What is the unity? Why is it needed when hundreds of other planets have been brought to heel without it? There are no answers given and as their collection was the engine that drove much of the plot it gives the film a hollow feeling both in the original and here as well.

That's where the time really needed to be spent, tightening up that core and developing the villains better and with out that you don't really get a better movie. Ultimately I'll say that while the Snyder cut gave us more human moments with the heroes and especially developed the Flash and Cyborg much better than the theatrical cut did, with its extended run time and failure to fix what was truly holding the story back it isn't really what I'd call a better film than the theatrical cut.
It's a movie that makes me think, like I do with a lot of the big comic events of late, this creator really needed a strong editor. Someone to tell Snyder, "Man, these are some really fantastic ideas, I love where you're going with this! For now though, let's focus on this small part right here, who is this guy? Why does the audience care? Let's build on that first and develop those other ideas down the line."

So in the end, definitely worth watching if you're a fan of the Justice League characters, but in my eyes not a vast improvement of the original.

I personally view it as a vast improvement, even if it's not in the pantheon of best CBMs.

However, I agree that Zack not only needs an editor he trusts, but also a co-director he trusts.

Like I feel him and Denis would be a match made in heaven, if they could work on a MoS or JL sequel. I know Ava is doing the New Gods, but I'd much rather directors like Snyder and/or Denis tackle them. It needs to be grand and mythic, and Ava's fantasy movie proved that she can't do that just yet. Maybe have her co-direct it with Zack, so we get his scale with her relatability?

[TooFlyToFail]

First, thanks to everyone who has watched this movie. Whether you liked it or not, whether you were/are a fan of Zack Snyder's or not, I just want to thank you for giving it a view. It means a lot considering so many of us (more than 10 as is often the number cited by detractors and haters) fought for this movie since 2017 when we began discovering what truly happened behind the scenes and were having things confirmed by Zack himself or at the very least, others who worked on the movie. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

It's interesting still reading some people suggesting the movie wasn't much different, despite it being different by a country mile. Is the overall story the same? Yes, mostly, but we have an additional two hours of original scenes and character development that goes on (the additional run time is longer than the theatrical cut, which was 119 mins.). That fact alone can very strongly stand on its own that it's not "mostly the same." I think that's just a part of some people, including critics, who are still trying to find something to hate about the #ReleaseTheSnyderCut movement, the movie itself, or even Zack himself but they know the truth or ended up enjoying the film more than they want to admit because it means they were/are wrong.

Zack only added one NEW [full] scene (and one other very minor one that was like 30 secs. long - Swannick's change in the middle of the film. That scene between Martha and Lois has already been filmed). There were no reshoots - HBO Max wouldn't allow them. And, as confirmed by Debbie Snyder herself, the only new scene they shot for this movie was the Knightmare sequence at the end. Zack purposely, and admittedly, tacked this on because he wanted to continue the Knightmare sequence from BvS (thus, showing where his arc was going as a potential "future" for the JL) and to also give fans his Batman and Leto's Joker some shared screen time at least once before his take on this universe was officially over. Everything else was what he originally shot prior to stepping away. Minor note: the scene I'm talking about is the beginning of the Knightmare sequence through Bruce's visitor (MM) to his house.

No Whedon scenes were used... Zack said in an interview he would not be using anything he didn't shoot [for artistic integrity]. If you're saying he kept Whedon scenes, you are mistaken.


For the record, there's been dozens of interviews recently with the Snyders, both video and written that have laid out the truth and facts. Again, I'm no longer at the point where I feel the need to spend more of my time going and providing these for the lazy haters/detractors or generally uninformed folks who want to spew nonsense or misinterpretations when the truth is just a few clicks away. So, if you want to verify some of the things I noted above, please do - I'm confident you'll find the interviews if you try. And the sources are from the Snyder's themselves...

Anyway, thanks again to everyone who joined the movement. And thanks to those who supported the movement but didn't partake, it meant a lot. And lastly, a final thanks to everyone who watched this film. Zack had two more Justice League movies planned in his 5 film arc and this one clearly sets up the next. Does it get darker? Yes, it's always darkest before the dawn... Alright, cheese aside, JL2 was going to be a very dark film considering Darkseid makes his move, the Anti-Life Equation becomes in full play, etc. BUT, he has noted that in his final film all is made right and the heroes take their rightful places as beacons of hope and strength. Will we ever see him finish his arc out? Unlikely at this point, but we didn't expect to be sitting here discussing his original cut of Justice League being released, either.

Yeah, I very much think that supporting this cut could breathe new life into what it means for filmmakers on streaming. More long form storytelling like this or the extended version of the Hateful Eight.

Personally, I think that Warner Media will want to continue this as a exclusive HBO Max draw, but it will take a different form and will take awhile to get together.

1) I think they would rather stuff like JL2, JL3, Batfleck, Deathstroke, etc take the form of premium limited series. That means different contracts, and varying budgets. That will take a lot of time to plan, if this continues.

2) They need to get these actors to come back and commit, without those major movie contracts. Would Affleck want to do that.

3) WB has to patch stuff up with the director guild, because they need talent to helm these projects. Gotta get people like Nolan and Denis back on board, even if it means letting them do more pet projects as favors for them to help do stuff for HBO Max.

I think this will pay major dividends, even beyond Snyderverse stuff, but it'll be awhile before we hear anything because Warner Media has to clean up and restructure their house first

[Harps]

I liked the Snyder cut much more than the original cut. It was baggy at times, and there were a few things that made my eyes roll (do we need car crashes as plot devices twice in the same movie?), somehow I found Flash more annoying than anything this time around. Steppenwolf was still very bad. But it was an enjoyable film.

I've not read much DC in a long time now. I used to buy Superman in the 90's, mostly because he was my entry into Comics with the Reeve films. Is this a fair representation of what Superman is now? I wanted to see the paragon of justice, the unmovable moral code. But Snyder seems to want to show him as evil Superman at any opportunity. We already had BvsS, I didn't need to see him fighting the good guys again.
I like Cavill as an actor and he looked great as Superman and Clark, but I never felt like he was the Superman I remember. It was odd, that at times it felt that they didn't want to call him Superman. 'He,' 'Him.' The final shot of the film is evil Superman. Thats how Snyder wants Superman remembered? As the bad guy?

[Kirby101]

The B & W version seems pointless. First it will just be a desaturized version of a movie filmed in color. If it was shot in B&W, that would be different, the approach is different when filming. It is akin to post production 3D, it never works for me and does things to the focus that makes the film worse looking. Also, the core material is "all in color for a dime", why a B&W version of color comics?

[Kirby101]

That line made me think of the CW Crisis on Infinite Earths too, but I'm not sure if it was intentional or not.

I think it was, it's not just the Crisis crossover. Every season, every villain, The Flash on CW wins by learning the "power of love." It's become absurd.
Just last week he got his speed back through Iris with "the power of love". Loved that they made fun of it in JL.

[AnakinFlair]

I personally view it as a vast improvement, even if it's not in the pantheon of best CBMs.

However, I agree that Zack not only needs an editor he trusts, but also a co-director he trusts.

Like I feel him and Denis would be a match made in heaven, if they could work on a MoS or JL sequel. I know Ava is doing the New Gods, but I'd much rather directors like Snyder and/or Denis tackle them. It needs to be grand and mythic, and Ava's fantasy movie proved that she can't do that just yet. Maybe have her co-direct it with Zack, so we get his scale with her relatability?

You're almost right. What Snyder needs is a WRITER. And not someone who shares his sensibilities, but someone who knows these characters. I wish Snyder had just been a director for hire, and that they had left crafting the story up to someone else.

I liked the Snyder cut much more than the original cut. It was baggy at times, and there were a few things that made my eyes roll (do we need car crashes as plot devices twice in the same movie?), somehow I found Flash more annoying than anything this time around. Steppenwolf was still very bad. But it was an enjoyable film.

I've not read much DC in a long time now. I used to buy Superman in the 90's, mostly because he was my entry into Comics with the Reeve films. Is this a fair representation of what Superman is now? I wanted to see the paragon of justice, the unmovable moral code. But Snyder seems to want to show him as evil Superman at any opportunity. We already had BvsS, I didn't need to see him fighting the good guys again.
I like Cavill as an actor and he looked great as Superman and Clark, but I never felt like he was the Superman I remember. It was odd, that at times it felt that they didn't want to call him Superman. 'He,' 'Him.' The final shot of the film is evil Superman. Thats how Snyder wants Superman remembered? As the bad guy?

I found Flash to be far more competent and enjoyable in the Snyder cut, but that made every time he acted annoyingly nerdy far more jarring. And I did roll my eyes when Iris's car exploded after the crash. As for Steppenwolf, I loved his new design, but I actually preferred the way his voice sounded in the Whedon cut.

And I think the biggest letdown of the Snyderverse is that we never got Cavill playing Superman as, well, SUPERMAN. There was always angst and anger, and he never got to be the Superman we all wanted to see- which is a shame, because I think he has the look. He just needed the right material.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

Way less people were saved by the heroes too in the movie.

Overall, personally, there were several scenes that were cool but I didn’t find it better than the original sadly. In fact, I found it worse because there are some things predicated on having watched the original to even make sense. And then there were continuity flaws too (I know Synder said this wasn’t canon, but still).

Bruce mentions to Diana he had a crazy dream of a future Barry warning him that Lois is the key, but we are never shown it. So that random conversation means nothing because there is no context. And Snyder has plenty of other visions throughout the movie, so he could have added it in.

Same with tracking Barry. In JL we have a scene were Bruce is given a heads up on Barry by that guard, but otherwise in this one he just suddenly appears in Barry’s off the grid bunker.

[TooFlyToFail]

You're almost right. What Snyder needs is a WRITER. And not someone who shares his sensibilities, but someone who knows these characters. I wish Snyder had just been a director for hire, and that they had left crafting the story up to someone else.



.

I think he gets these characters for the most part, but, because of his sensibilities, focused on different aspects of some characters or view them with different context.

1) Superman is inherently a good person, has per usual, but here he's both inexperienced and was raised in our cynical world. That means he questions his purpose, because it's not as easy as it's always been depicted. Honestly, it's a breath of fresh air, because I want to see Superman grow to wear he wants to protect this world because he's been inspired by its potential; rather than him just being altruistic at all times, just cuz. People are complicated, and they will throw their politics and worldviews on him. I love seeing him struggle with that, early in his hero career. It's a shame his arc was cut short, because WB wanted JL, rather than Superman sequels.

2) The Kents are actually real people here, who put their son above everyone else. They know he's destined for great things and that he's good at heart, but they also know this world and love their son. If Clark showed his powers too much, the world would notice and they would claim him, and place so many burdens on him....and they want to protect their son as long, and as much, as possible. He's their son first, and that means being their to tell him the truth of the world and holding his life above everything else. The Donner Kents are ridiculous, and have no depth to them.

3) Batman has now realized how futile his personal war has been after 20 years of fighting. He calls his earlier ideals, and purpose, a "beautiful lie" he convinced himself of and is now unraveling. I love showing this life take its toll on him. In comics, the stories can't ever end, so Bruce can never falter. In a movie series, with an end in the cards, you can have him go through actual arcs through his life that are permanent fixtures of the character. It makes sense that a man would mentally, and emotionally, crumple after 2 decades of futile fighting, and then have that be escalated when he finds out how much more insignificant he is in the grand scheme of the universe. Him being the antagonist was the point, and him being inspired by another hero still deciding to be one despite all his own trouble was too.

Now, the reason why I said co-director, rather than writer, is because they would help with his storyboarding and help flesh out his themes from inception, which would then be reflected in when they work with the writer. Tho, yes, I agree that maybe a writing team of Terrio and, say, a Morrison or Jurgens, to better mold that different context with what we love in the comics could've worked better.

For instance, in BVS, I think an adaptation of the All-Star Superman suicide scene would've been perfect after Clark's Pa Kent flashback. It would've been nice to see Clark, still conflicted with his own troubles, see a child about commit suicide, relate and take the time to tell her/him that life and purpose is worth fighting for or finding, even when it all seems futile. He may not believe it fully in that moment, but he wants to.

[HsssH]

Way less people were saved by the heroes too in the movie.

Did you miss the part where they saved entire planet?

Bruce mentions to Diana he had a crazy dream of a future Barry warning him that Lois is the key, but we are never shown it. So that random conversation means nothing because there is no context. And Snyder has plenty of other visions throughout the movie, so he could have added it in.

It happened in Batman/Superman.

[Kirby101]

HssH beat me to it.

[Kirby101]

Same with tracking Barry. In JL we have a scene were Bruce is given a heads up on Barry by that guard, but otherwise in this one he just suddenly appears in Barry’s off the grid bunker.

We don't need an extra scene on how the World's Greatest Detective finds someone. Bruce just sitting there without the set up was way cooler.

[Rev9]

You know that soldiers have rules of engagement, right? That escalation of force isn't a requirement?

Diana's main thing is empathy and discipline. Neither are displayed by recklessly killing a guy she could have handled any number of ways.

Not that I'm in the military but most rules of engagement pertain protocols for those surrendering, holding fire to allow disarmament, or distinguishing civilians from combatants or choosing your weapons for the environment for example not carpet bombing an urban area to clear the enemy..sure there can be technicalities but when you are actually engaging the enemy in a firefight ,there is no rules , it is you or them.I know he was no threat to her ,but he was a threat to all those behind her, that guy was expendable.

[TooFlyToFail]

Way less people were saved by the heroes too in the movie.

Overall, personally, there were several scenes that were cool but I didn’t find it better than the original sadly. In fact, I found it worse because there are some things predicated on having watched the original to even make sense. And then there were continuity flaws too (I know Synder said this wasn’t canon, but still).

Bruce mentions to Diana he had a crazy dream of a future Barry warning him that Lois is the key, but we are never shown it. So that random conversation means nothing because there is no context. And Snyder has plenty of other visions throughout the movie, so he could have added it in.

Same with tracking Barry. In JL we have a scene were Bruce is given a heads up on Barry by that guard, but otherwise in this one he just suddenly appears in Barry’s off the grid bunker.

What do you mean they save less people here? The tunnels scene sees them act more quickly to save people, before Steppenwolfe starts killing hostages. Then we see Flash and Cyborg make sure those people are completely safe before being back to help WW and Batfleck. During the Superman resurrection fight, they save people during the fight. When they go to resurrect Supes, they create a diversion specifically to get people out of any danger. Flash saves Iris West. Cyborg helps that single mother. Diana, while going overboard on the terrorists lol, takes the time to give words of encouragement to kids. Aquaman, despite himself, does care about people in this movie (like when he showed remorse for Silas's death). Flash, despite being hurt, forces his power into overdrive without a second thought to reverse time.

I don't know how you can watch this movie, and not see how they're more heroic, than in the theatrical cut.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

Did you miss the part where they saved entire planet?



It happened in Batman/Superman.

Yes, they did that in the original as well. Merely pointed out that showing heroes saving people (the Russian family or the entire apartment of people) is a nice touch. My point is still valid.

As to the second point, I also understand that. But if this is Snyder’s version, meant to be watched as its own thing, than having that scene in it doesn’t make sense because it’s not in HIS movie.

As an example, if I had never seen JL, but watched this one, than that scene where Bruce is talking to Diana about it makes absolutely no sense.

[Rev9]

Did you miss the part where they saved entire planet?



It happened in Batman/Superman.

Man it never ceases to amaze me or amuse me how little people seem to think of saving a species as opposed to one or a hundred.Smh those were the same folk complaining that Supes snapped a neck, yeah one guy dead =7 billion or so living ...must be really hard mathematics