Jiren vs. The DC Greek Gods

[Nik Hasta]

I am very interested as to what you are trying to claim "manipulating comic pages," translates to in terms of power level.

Care to be a bit more specific in what you're implying there, Rightoya?

[big_adventure]

So much to unpack:

1. Powerup versus... not. You want us to accept that this is actually universe-destruction level force despite the absolute absence of destroyed universes and the person saying it is that level both being prone to exaggeration and petering out at about... trash can buster. But you don't want to accept that the DEMIgoddes in question is working with an explicit one-time powerup there, which is something that wouldn't be included in the rumble. Which is it? We accept everything Constantine says, or we don't. Please, your choice.

2. Jiren has powered through "hax" multiple times just fine. Hell, he even has them - he pauses to meditate and people who are easily capable of icing a planet without breaking a sweat can't even approach the guy. He powers through Hit's time skip just fine, without really having to try all that hard. Hit then uses his ultimate technique, the time cage thing, meaning to lock Jiren out until after the competition ends, but nope, Jiren breaks out of that as well. Hit being a guy who is, based on his handling of SSBs, pretty far along the path to "universe threatening."

3. Goku, way back as just an SSG, fighting with Beerus who wasn't going all out, threatened the universe. This is mod-ruled, it's really not up for debate. Goku has since gone through multiple upgrades through training and new forms.

Nobody is saying Hecate doesn't have... stuff she can do. But what she can't do is survive even one hit from Jiren - not even close. She also can't leave the arena and operate from a distance - she rings herself out that way, and loses instantly. And nothing that the gods can do quickly will even slow Jiren down. He's so fast that SSBs can't properly react to him most of the time.

[Rightoya]

If I'm interpreting these scans right, aren't they saying that DC Hecate isn't actually a Greek Goddess, but a primordial super-god that eventually agreed to join the Olympians for some reason?

Well that is why i have said technically part of the Greek Gods, but i would say she should definitively count for composite, but that is still a better counter point than that Jiren who is not even a threat to the somewhat haxed angels in Dragonball Super could somehow take on a being that is the literal origin of a significant chunk of the hax in the entire normal DC multiverse.

Was she the reason that Wonder Woman's lasso became the universal embodiment of Truth in that one arc, or was that just general SMvFL for the rest of the Greek pantheon (like how Odin don't even close to as well as hedid against Galactus might be considered SMvFL for him, too, considering that Galactus tends to be much more solidly in the Galactic/Celestial/Universal tiers than Odin is, depending on how well fed he is)?

If you mean the Golden Perfect/Spirit of Truth story, no but there was actually Wonder Woman's soul also named the Spirit of Truth the actual embodiement of Truth, and the lasso justt a conductor for that. But Wonder Woman as Goddess of Truth would technically also count for the composite Greek Gods i guess:



If you mean the recent Death Metal were the lasso became the embodiement of truth for all the multiverses and turned Wonder Woman into a Golden Giant, to beat the Darkest Knight, no that was also not Hecate.

Hecate was the reason that Wonder Woman turned into this:



And technically also part of the reason why Wonder Woman turned later on into his:



But all of that was less of a SMvFL situatiion, and more of a Cosmic Spider Man on crack situation. And the reason why a composite Wonder Woman would first literally turn Jiren into a door and then walk through him, and makes even Hecate herself look unimpressive by now, but that is mostly because of Rebirth in which Wonder Woman had more cosmical power ups than in all the other time lines of DC together.

[Rightoya]

I am very interested as to what you are trying to claim "manipulating comic pages," translates to in terms of power level.

Care to be a bit more specific in what you're implying there, Rightoya?

Reality warping on a rather high level, to which Jiren is most certainly not immune.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Reality warping on a rather high level, to which Jiren is most certainly not immune.

For what its worth, Dragon Ball characters are explicitly resistant to/immune to esoteric effects like time manipulation or divinely powered wishes of beings that aren't at least comparable to their own power level.

That's why Goku can't be teleported or resurrected by the casually planetary-level Namek Dragon Balls against his will, went from being affected by Hit's timestop to being able to break through them when he powered up enough, to being able to tear holes into Hit's temporal-phasing pocket dimension by getting powerful enough (which is possibly related to how Super Buu and SSJ3 Gotenks tearing holes out of the Room of Spirit and Time's temporally dilated pocket dimension by screaming at it), and Jiren being able to break through Hit's attempt to freeze him in time with SSB-levels of power despite not having powered up even close to his full, explicitly greater than the casually universe-busting tier of a God of Destruction.

Oh, since someone mentioned the time that Odin shook the universe by powering, I'm reminded of the time that Jiren allegedly shook the world of the void, the infinite space in which the multiverse floated, by beginning to power up (I say allegedly, because I don't know that #18 is qualified to state that the *entire* thing was shaking, so it may have been meant a bit metaphorically).

[Rightoya]

So much to unpack:

1. Powerup versus... not. You want us to accept that this is actually universe-destruction level force despite the absolute absence of destroyed universes

No, like i have said universe creating level force that was used to write and rewrite reality over and over again.

and the person saying it is that level both being prone to exaggeration and petering out at about... trash can buster.

About which person are you talking, and about what trash can busters?

But you don't want to accept that the DEMIgoddes in question is working with an explicit one-time powerup there, which is something that wouldn't be included in the rumble. Which is it? We accept everything Constantine says, or we don't. Please, your choice.

What on earth are you even talking about, Witchmarked Wonder Woman isn't part of this rumble at all, but Hecate the origin of that power up is depending on the stipulations.

2. Jiren has powered through "hax" multiple times just fine.

Jiren has powered through a bit of rather low level hax for a cosmical debate, from other Ki users, that don't gives him immunity to all hax in fiction. Especially considering that even a Herald like the Silver Surfer has on his own more hax already than most Dragonball characters put together, although he has of course not enough sheer power to tangle with Dragonball Super high tiers

Hell, he even has them - he pauses to meditate and people who are easily capable of icing a planet without breaking a sweat can't even approach the guy.

Do you understand that Hecate is a being who probably thinks of normal planets like we think of photons or even lesser things?

He powers through Hit's time skip just fine, without really having to try all that hard. Hit then uses his ultimate technique, the time cage thing, meaning to lock Jiren out until after the competition ends, but nope, Jiren breaks out of that as well. Hit being a guy who is, based on his handling of SSBs, pretty far along the path to "universe threatening."

Why are you telling me that?

3. Goku, way back as just an SSG, fighting with Beerus who wasn't going all out, threatened the universe. This is mod-ruled, it's really not up for debate. Goku has since gone through multiple upgrades through training and new forms.

And Hecate affected an entire multiverse that is much bigger than all the Dragonball universes together, for billions of years.

Nobody is saying Hecate doesn't have... stuff she can do.

The problem is that Jiren couldn't even dream of the stuff Hecate can do.

But what she can't do is survive even one hit from Jiren - not even close.

And that happens before or after Jiren one shots Zeno and the Grand Priest with just one hit? Also could you please explain to me how Jiren even affects a being purely made of magic with his hits:

She also can't leave the arena and operate from a distance - she rings herself out that way, and loses instantly.

Why would she leave the arena, at least before banishing Jiren into the Dark Multiverse as exammple?

And nothing that the gods can do quickly will even slow Jiren down. He's so fast that SSBs can't properly react to him most of the time.

Is the next fight with that logic i can expect maybe Ultra Instinct Goku vs Perpetua, or why not just going fully crazy with Krillin vs the Endless, or Yamcha vs Lucifer Morningstar?

[Rightoya]

For what its worth, Dragon Ball characters are explicitly resistant to/immune to esoteric effects like time manipulation or divinely powered wishes of beings that aren't at least comparable to their own power level.

That's why Goku can't be teleported or resurrected by the casually planetary-level Namek Dragon Balls against his will, went from being affected by Hit's timestop to being able to break through them when he powered up enough, to being able to tear holes into Hit's temporal-phasing pocket dimension by getting powerful enough (which is possibly related to how Super Buu and SSJ3 Gotenks tearing holes out of the Room of Spirit and Time's temporally dilated pocket dimension by screaming at it), and Jiren being able to break through Hit's attempt to freeze him in time with SSB-levels of power despite not having powered up even close to his full, explicitly greater than the casually universe-busting tier of a God of Destruction.

Even if we would handwave that for all hax of all other verses in fiction, Hecate is above Zeno's power level anyway.

Oh, since someone mentioned the time that Odin shook the universe by powering, I'm reminded of the time that Jiren allegedly shook the world of the void, the infinite space in which the multiverse floated, by beginning to power up (I say allegedly, because I don't know that #18 is qualified to state that the *entire* thing was shaking, so it may have been meant a bit metaphorically).

I don't think that Odin would win against Jiren anyway, at least not if Jiren isn't an idiot again and starts meditating.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Even if we would handwave that for all hax of all other verses in fiction, Hecate is above Zeno's power level anyway.



I don't think that Odin would win against Jiren anyway, at least not if Jiren isn't an idiot again and starts meditating.

I don't know that any of the feats that you showed are on par with Zen'O making entire crowds of casual universe busters practically soil themselves at the thought of his(?) ire, casually (and functionally instantly) wiping out multiple multiverses (at one point being at ground zero of the destruction and being completely unharmed), and negating the immortality granted by a set of DragonBalls that are capable of instantly bringing back all the multiverses that Zen'O erased (with the possible exception of the one that Zamasu had merged with, though hopefully that one was also brought back at that time) all at once in the process of one of those multiverse busters.

An argument could be made that Zen'O has much less *breadth* of powers than Hecate since all we really saw are multiverse-level firepower/durability, some degree of high end superspeed reflexes, and the ability to create a button that allows the local version of him to be summoned to anywhere in the multiverse (or to bring the person to the the local version of him), but even that's iffy since its been made clear from the fact that the Tournament of Power was actually a test of character rather than brute power and skill that he's at least somewhat more than he generally appears to be.

[Nik Hasta]

Reality warping on a rather high level, to which Jiren is most certainly not immune.

What's the effect and scale of that reality warping and why do you think it's high level?

Because in the pages shown, I only see minor spatial distortion, some form of teleportation and... I don't know how to parse the "break it all bit," without the following page for context.

Not exactly groundbreaking stuff.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Ignoring everything else, posting scans of Diana Power Posing doesn't do anything more than show that she is, in fact, goddamned fabulous.

[Rightoya]

I don't know that any of the feats that you showed are on par with Zen'O making entire crowds of casual universe busters practically soil themselves at the thought of his(?) ire, casually (and functionally instantly) wiping out multiple multiverses (at one point being at ground zero of the destruction and being completely unharmed), and negating the immortality granted by a set of DragonBalls that are capable of instantly bringing back all the multiverses that Zen'O erased (with the possible exception of the one that Zamasu had merged with, though hopefully that one was also brought back at that time) all at once in the process of one of those multiverse busters.

When became the at best 18 but more likely 12 UNIVERSES Zeno wiped out in that instance each multiverses?
And how it that even nearly comparable to putting a protective barrier around the entire normal DC multiverse on a wimp as a basically newborn, that divided it from the dark multiverse for at least billions of years, and just stopped doing so because Hecate herself merged the magic of the main multiverse which is in fact her own magic with the magic of the dark multiverse?

An argument could be made that Zen'O has much less *breadth* of powers than Hecate since all we really saw are multiverse-level firepower/durability, some degree of high end superspeed reflexes, and the ability to create a button that allows the local version of him to be summoned to anywhere in the multiverse (or to bring the person to the the local version of him), but even that's iffy since its been made clear from the fact that the Tournament of Power was actually a test of character rather than brute power and skill that he's at least somewhat more than he generally appears to be.

I don't even see how he has nearly the same power, but his amount of hax is downright pathetic in comparison, and even if he's more than he appears to be all the hax in Dragonball to Dragonball Super and even if we include GT put together can't compare to what magic has all done in DC already.

[Rightoya]

What's the effect and scale of that reality warping and why do you think it's high level?

It's effect is affecting the comicbook pages in a way just the highest levels of toonforce do.

Because in the pages shown, I only see minor spatial distortion, some form of teleportation and... I don't know how to parse the "break it all bit," without the following page for context.

What teleportation did you see, and when has Jiren even resisted any form of reality warping, or any hax that goes meta at all?

Not exactly groundbreaking stuff.

For the DC or Marvel verse certainly not, but we are talking about someone from the Dragoonball verse as opponent, and not even Moro or an angel.

[Marvel-Studios Rep]

It's effect is affecting the comicbook pages in a way just the highest levels of toonforce do.



What teleportation did you see, and when has Jiren even resisted any form of reality warping, or any hax that goes meta at all?


For the DC or Marvel verse certainly not, but we are talking about someone from the Dragoonball verse as opponent, and not even Moro or an angel.

I would have figured being able to mess with comic pages jumps someone into Post Crisis DC Fifth Dimensional being territory, although not necessarily Mxyzptlk

Brining up Moro is a really good point. It lends to the fact DB dudes are still very vulnerable to some weird stuff. Bare in mind that Moro wasnt even above Base Vegeta stats at one point, but his magic was working on them. *Notably energy drain that can suck a planet dry in a few seconds. Even Vegito in original dragonball didnt resist being outright turned into candy by Buu who was way weaker than him. Vegito retained his power, but was turned into Candy. And that was just magic transmuting. Plus befits needed a barrier to resist absorption, despite his vastly higher Ki. Of course Jiren is way past that power level, and to his credit I donÂ’t think any weird ability shown in TOP would work on him due to his shield/ powering up. Though we didnÂ’t see an endless amount of hax in the TOP, and certainty no high level reality warping.

Personally, I wouldnÂ’t hand wave Jiren resistance to stuff he or someone weaker than him hasnÂ’t shown or really strongly been implied to overcome. However, I could see someone going woth him just lolnoping a hax because his power level just blocked it. Kinda like Saitama did to Tatsumaki cause his willpower or wtv was too high. DBS like Jiren can resist existence erasure after all. Hmmmm

[Nik Hasta]

See, this right here:

It's effect is affecting the comicbook pages in a way just the highest levels of toonforce do.

This was exactly the sort of assertion I was anticipating when this particular feat came up. I want to stress that meta-usage of the format of the medium does not necessarily take precedence over non-meta stuff. There is a tendency within internet fight circles to claim that toons and the like are omnipotent beings because of minor prods at the fourth wall.

As noted, what is being shown on the pages, is nothing particularly special by reality warping terms so I would be very cautious about building your case upon these instances.

What teleportation did you see,

On this page in this panels:



Hecate or whoever was in some white void space and pulled space apart to appear in the scene. Seems like an esoteric form of teleportation to me.

and when has Jiren even resisted any form of reality warping, or any hax that goes meta at all?

I haven't made any claims about Jiren or his ability to resist anything. I am trying to nail down what you are actually trying to claim Hecate is capable of. So far, you seem to be leaning very heavily on the fact that her reality warping includes meta-elements in it's presentation and, as noted above, that does not intrinsically make it any better or worse than other reality warping.

Especially when the results and use of it aren't very impressive.

Do you have the follow up page to the one I posted above. I would like to see the results or impact of the "Break it all," section.

[big_adventure]

@Rightoya - you keep claiming feats for multiversal reality manipulation and power levels, then... not showing anything of the sort. Stepping from one void into somewhere else isn't all that high end, and of course, unless she's shown some pretty serious FTL reflexes, she's getting punched by a dude more powerful than universe busters before she can react. I'd like to see her feats of resisting this.

And no, saying "Are you saying that Hecate, who is the awesomest of the awesome because I say so not because we actually have feats of her being that, can't tank a universe buster?" isn't changing that question that you really can't seem to answer except by selling a strawman. Because you most definitely haven't shown her do anything of the sort. I wouldn't let Bugs Bunny slide on this against, say, Jiren, despite that Bugs leaves the panel and reality warps by literallly rewriting the panel more than Hecate does, on screen.

And the person I jokingly said tops at at trash can buster is the actual person making the statement I referred to from your scan, Constantine. Yes, he's probably somewhat above that, you know, maybe dumpster buster. Or are you going to try to sell me on Constantine being a universal-scale reality warper now?