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  1. #106
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Is Omni-Man really a "evil" Superman trope the way the series eventually plays out? If you didn't stick with the comics or are just coming into it from the Amazon show, I can see how he'd play that way. But I don't really think of him as one in the long run. Ha, now I'm in the weird space where I don't know if I need spoiler tags because the decades old twist is new to a lot of people who are coming in cold to the show.
    Omni-Man is in the same area as Red Son Superman or Overman for me. I feel like we need to differentiate between the “Noble Demon” Supermen who do evil acts but aren’t totally devoid of a moral core, and then the mustache twirlers like Injustice Superman and Homelander who are just there to commit atrocities and are straight up unrepentant villains. The difference between Freiza and Vegeta essentially.
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  2. #107
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Is Omni-Man really a "evil" Superman trope the way the series eventually plays out? If you didn't stick with the comics or are just coming into it from the Amazon show, I can see how he'd play that way. But I don't really think of him as one in the long run. Ha, now I'm in the weird space where I don't know if I need spoiler tags because the decades old twist is new to a lot of people who are coming in cold to the show.
    I have only watched the cartoon, but, thus far, he was very much in the Superman-type, prior to the big reveal

  3. #108
    Astonishing Member Prime's Avatar
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    Evil Superman is were you go when you are creatively bankrupt. It was alright when Injustice did it. But it has then overstayed it's welcome.

  4. #109
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    I think part of why it happened as much as it did was that old editorial mandate: "last son of Krypton".... Toss that out and you can have fun with guys like Dru-zod, or Karsta Wor-Ul. But editorial likes to banish them when whatever story ends. Heck Az-rel and Nadira got killed off-panel! Seriously, I think the real problem is needing more persistent bad guys.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Omni-Man is in the same area as Red Son Superman or Overman for me. I feel like we need to differentiate between the “Noble Demon” Supermen who do evil acts but aren’t totally devoid of a moral core, and then the mustache twirlers like Injustice Superman and Homelander who are just there to commit atrocities and are straight up unrepentant villains. The difference between Freiza and Vegeta essentially.
    Evil Superman is a boring idea, but Superman turning evil is interesting.

    Evil Superman is essentially any supervillain (A story with evil Superman can have Superman be replaced by Zod, or Mongul, or any number of super-strong and invulnerable villain and not miss a beat. Ultraman is an outright evil Superman and is boring). That's why the Darkseid Anti-life brainwashing angle wouldn't work - a Superman that is evil 'because mind-control', and has super powers, could be easily replaced with Kalibak as the antagonist. The way writers counteract this 'boringness' is typically through shock value (have him be ultra violent, have him do this sadistic act, etc.).

    Superman turning evil, now that is interesting. How he goes from incorruptible to corrupt (but with still a recognizable level of heroism) is interesting. I found Superman to be compelling in Injustice up to the point he turned outright evil.

  6. #111
    Astonishing Member Prime's Avatar
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    Since it's been done so much it no longer is interesting. We have yet to see Batlol in other media. So we can start the evil Batman trend

  7. #112
    Extraordinary Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lefthanded View Post
    Evil Superman is a boring idea, but Superman turning evil is interesting.

    Evil Superman is essentially any supervillain (A story with evil Superman can have Superman be replaced by Zod, or Mongul, or any number of super-strong and invulnerable villain and not miss a beat. Ultraman is an outright evil Superman and is boring). That's why the Darkseid Anti-life brainwashing angle wouldn't work - a Superman that is evil 'because mind-control', and has super powers, could be easily replaced with Kalibak as the antagonist. The way writers counteract this 'boringness' is typically through shock value (have him be ultra violent, have him do this sadistic act, etc.).

    Superman turning evil, now that is interesting. How he goes from incorruptible to corrupt (but with still a recognizable level of heroism) is interesting. I found Superman to be compelling in Injustice up to the point he turned outright evil.
    Honestly the thing with me is Superman who turn evil are only interesting when they're contrasted with the regular Superman (this goes for other evil versions of other characters).

    It's why the only good scenes in the Injustice franchise that aren't dogshit are the ones involving when it involves the "regular" characters interacting or smacking down their Regime/Injustice counterparts.

  8. #113
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    If I had my druthers, Injustice 3 will lean much more into the Multiverse angle and pit their Evil Superman against the Jeans & T-shirt Superman, who's still young and full of piss 'n vinegar. Since it's a forgone conclusion that they'll have Batman against The Batman Who Laughs, I'd like there to be something meaty for the Superman fans to play with.

    I also wouldn't complain if they incorporated Zack Snyder's Anti-Life Equation idea into the story to help explain why Injustice Superman went bad to begin with since the most recent Year Zero story took great pains to show how incorruptable this Superman was supposed to be.
    Last edited by Bored at 3:00AM; 05-06-2021 at 07:48 AM.

  9. #114
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Omni-Man is in the same area as Red Son Superman or Overman for me. I feel like we need to differentiate between the “Noble Demon” Supermen who do evil acts but aren’t totally devoid of a moral core, and then the mustache twirlers like Injustice Superman and Homelander who are just there to commit atrocities and are straight up unrepentant villains. The difference between Freiza and Vegeta essentially.
    Well, even then Goku eventually made peace with Freiza. Sure it's a very tenuous peace with death threats involved... but still... Goku chose to forgo trying to kill Freiza... again.... and instead let him leave.

  10. #115
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    But with Omni-Man and Homelander being popular villains among the general public at this point, doesn't the general public still love evil Superman like characters?

  11. #116
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    But with Omni-Man and Homelander being popular villains among the general public at this point, doesn't the general public still love evil Superman like characters?
    They make good villains because they're so impossibly overpowered compared to the hero that the "how" of the takedown becomes interesting. Add great performances on top of that and yes, you have a compelling villain.

    To paraphrase a lot of writers over the years, "it's not a great story to watch Goliath simply step on David, but have David take out Goliath and everyone asks 'how?'"

    Most writers don't seem to understand that Superman need not always be Goliath, hence why they can't make him work as the hero. It's their failure, not the character's. I see more people love All-Might than Deku when talking about My Hero Academia. There's plenty of love for positive Superman-analogues too. Most writers are just too far up their own behinds to accept that dark doesn't automatically mean quality or adulthood-- it's just dark. But hey, when we're raised to think sarcasm is an excuse for not having a personality and that only cynicism and dark storytelling have value, can you blame them?



    My god, I'm sorry for the boomer moment. I don't know what came over me.
    Last edited by Robanker; 05-09-2021 at 07:46 PM.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    They make good villains because they're so impossibly overpowered compared to the hero that the "how" of the takedown becomes interesting. Add great performances on top of that and yes, you have a compelling villain.

    To paraphrase a lot of writers over the years, "it's not a great story to watch Goliath simply step on David, but have David take out Goliath and everyone asks 'how?'"

    Most writers don't seem to understand that Superman need not always be Goliath, hence why they can't make him work as the hero. It's their failure, not the character's. I see more people love All-Might than Deku when talking about My Hero Academia. There's plenty of love for positive Superman-analogues too. Most writers are just too far up their own behinds to accept that dark doesn't automatically mean quality or adulthood-- it's just dark. But hey, when we're raised to think sarcasm is an excuse for not having a personality and that only cynicism and dark storytelling have value, can you blame them?



    My god, I'm sorry for the boomer moment. I don't know what came over me.
    But are Omni-Man and Homelander bad characters? I think people like them because they are powerful, but also because they can hide their ill deeds behind a Superman like good reputation, so that they will not always show their true selves and things become tense because you never know if they use violence in a scene or not.

  13. #118
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    But are Omni-Man and Homelander bad characters? I think people like them because they are powerful, but also because they can hide their ill deeds behind a Superman like good reputation, so that they will not always show their true selves and things become tense because you never know if they use violence in a scene or not.
    Omni-Man seems to believe he's not a monster, but there's no pretense with Homelander. Invincible has a different path for Nolan, but especially after the season finale, it's hard to see him as anything but a monster.

    Homelander? Are we even entertaining the idea he's not top-to-bottom evil? Sure, he's fooled a lot of the people on his planet, but that doesn't mean he's not the worst person on it.

  14. #119
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    You guys do realise omni man and homelander are both calling out fakeness that many a times is conveyed through superman.Many a times the guy comes off fake as heck.Atleast,that's what i get.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  15. #120
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Atleast,that's what i get.
    It's just you.

    Most the creators behind those characters will tell you "but Superman would never do those things because that's not who the character is."

    It's fake to you because you don't want Superman's more traditional take to be sincere which you've made clear over thousands of posts hammering the same nail into the dirt.

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