The Evil Superman Discussion Thread

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Clearly, this is an idea that movies, TV, and video games are obsessed with, so we might as well dive in and talk about it.

Personally, I view it as the laziest and easiest route to take with the character. The whole appeal of Superman is that he's the most powerful man on Earth, capable to doing whatever he wants, but he chooses to only use all those abilities to serve rather than rule.

That said, the roots of this approach to Superman have been there from the beginning. Seigel & Shuster's Superman was, when you boil it all down, a bully who happened to be on the side of the angels. He was very much "might makes right". That Superman was very much a power fantasy created by a bunch of nerdy Jews to work out their own feelings of powerlessness in a world that was going increasingly crazy.

So, in a sense, I can understand why Evil Superman is a button that gets pressed so often.

For me, it can work, but the conditions have to be exactly right, otherwise I tune out completely, as I do with the Injustice games because the basic thesis of that story is that Superman would succumb to evil as long as you inflict a big enough blow to him emotionally, like the murder of Lois and his unborn child. That's nonsense to me. Superman would absolutely be emotionally devastated by that, but the idea that he would allow that to warp him into a dictator is a complete misunderstanding of who the character is.

However, there are times when it could work for me. I thought Superman TAS made it work by having him be brainwashed by Darkseid. I also think Snyder's notion of Superman sucumbing to the Anti-Life Equation could work in theory.

What about you guys? Would it ever work for you or is it a dead end?

[Rightoya]

It would have potential, but it is typically uncreative and edgy, and they do it far too often to have any impact with it. And that is not even going into how often they manage to make other characters look bad with it, except typically Batman of course.

And it frankly makes not even sense in the modern shared DC universe or even multiverse if not omniverse full of planetary and interplanetary supereroes, endless planetary, interplanetary and cosmical supervillains, with interplanetary Space Police in each sector, Superman would need to go full Prime One Million and at least start to conquer the whole Universe to even have the impact they typically try to portray.

[Gaius]

Next time they do one can they not toss Wonder Woman under the bus so he can have some arm candy to gawk at him in place of Lois?

[DochaDocha]

I'll try to keep this short by saying if you're new to Superman, the idea of an evil version of himself sounds intriguing. If you've been following the character for decades (particularly the last few), every new incarnation of EVIL SUPERMAN! probably makes you think, "What, again?!"

[sifighter]

It only works in elseworlds for me, because when it comes to those stories I’m already prepared for things to be different and I can accept them as they are, so with something like Injustice I can accept it because I know that’s not the real Superman. Hell the first game ends with the real Superman whooping the injustice version and then later Conner and Kara replace Clark so we have actual good versions of Superman.

For me you can do anything in any elseworld because it’s supposed to be a different world, I mean come on there is a world Batman turns into a monstrous vampire. As long as it’s elseworld it’s okay in my book.

When it comes to main earth Superman, he’s not evil and he can never go evil on his own accord. He can get upset but he can never cross that line, period.

[achilles]

I'll try to keep this short by saying if you're new to Superman, the idea of an evil version of himself sounds intriguing. If you've been following the character for decades (particularly the last few), every new incarnation of EVIL SUPERMAN! probably makes you think, "What, again?!"

Yeah for me it is just way too cliche at this point. Evil Superman no matter what the variation, is just sooo tired by now. I'm willing to accept ONE evil Superman types in the DCU; Ultraman, (he's the best of the bunch IMO).

[Multiverse]

Ultraman.jpg

Nothing beats Ultraman as the definitive evil Superman.

[Ra-El]

DC should make an edit: No Evil Superman adaptations for the next 10 years. The only exception would be Bizarro, but the Bizarrro World version, with his Bizarro League, his cube planet and all that crazy ****.

[Guy_McNichts]

Right now, I'd say the biggest problem with "evil Superman" stories is their overdone. So now its just tiresome and cliche.

The thing about "evil Superman" is, while a story that shows him lose his morals or give in to corruption could be an interesting character study, that's rarely what we get. I think part of that is Clark is so firmly established as a good and decent man, it's hard to imagine a scenario where he would genuinely abandon everything he is. Honestly, if he really was to get fed up with mankind, I think the worst he'd do is just leave. Or go into exile like in Kingdom Come.

The fact is most "evil Superman" stories are not really about him as a character or why he would turn bad (Red Son being an arguable exception). Him becoming evil is just the device to focus on how everyone else reacts and deals with it. That's why most "evil Superman" stories fall back on mind control, the Anti-Life Equation, or (perhaps the worst) playing the dead Lois card.

And I agree, the notion that all it takes for Superman to do a complete 180 is for Lois to die is really insulting to the character.
For all people adulate The Killing Joke and the whole "one bad day" theme, what a lot of those fans seem to forget is Joker's plan in that story fails (Gordon doesn't go insane) and Batman throws his logic back in his face ("Maybe it was just you all along?")
So Superman of all people abandoning everything he believes and his principles because of a single tragedy frankly just makes him look like a weak-willed fool.

That leads to what might be the most irritating element of "evil Superman" stories now: how often they're used to adulate Batman. Because writers and fans are too in love with the idea of the hero without powers being the lone opposition to the god-like being with only his wits and gadgets.
Injustice is the most egregious example of this, as others have pointed out. The almighty Bat would never lose his morals. He would never turn evil. Hell, even the Justice Lords Batman wound up turning good and helping the League...because Batman in any form in incorruptible.

As tiresome as "evil Superman" is, "Batman is always right" is just as overdone. Both awful flavors that tend to go hand in hand.

Which brings me to Wonder Woman, and I have to say as a Wonder Woman fan, it frustrates me to no end that the vast majority of "evil Superman" stories tend to offer only one of two options to Diana:
She either becomes just as evil and for less reason (Injustice, the Justice Lords, Red Son), or she's crushed/killed by him with embarrassing ease (DCeased, the Justice League movie, Absolute Power).

Like, on paper, if anyone should have the best chance of opposing an evil Superman, it should be Wonder Woman. And I feel like a story depicting her as the last/only hope against a corrupted Superman--done right--should be an epic, tragic, maybe catastrophic war of gods.
But that would distract us from Bat-Poochie, so Diana needs to get put out of the way as quickly and anti-climatically as possible and screw her.

It does feel like "evil Superman" stories, when their not about how great Batman is, are just an ugly indulgence for certain edge-lord fans who love the idea of Superman proving he's the strongest hero of them all by stomping all over every other hero.
It's flip-side to the idea that "Superman is great because he has this god-like power and devotes it to helping others," becoming instead "Superman is great because he could murder EVERYONE and NO ONE could stop him, so aren't you grateful he doesn't?"

I just find it a gross interpretation of Superman.

I'm just not a fan of the idea that no one--neither individually, nor collectively as a group--can stop him if he turns bad or fill the void of his absence if he was gone. Superman being the strongest hero is one thing, and I'm not against that. But Superman being stronger than everyone put together? No, that's insulting to the other heroes...some of whom are supposed to be the best and strongest in their own way.

I'd be happy if we had a moratorium on "evil Superman" stories for a long time. They do him no favors, they don't reveal or explore anything interesting about him, and they're just annoying now.
But, if we must keep beating this horse, just once I would like to see one where Wonder Woman is the only hope against him and she's not curb-stomped like a chump. If we have to keep rehashing "evil Superman," throw Diana fans a bone at least once, please.

[DABellWrites]

Long as they're pastiches, I don't care. I enjoyed Brightburn because it was a blatant evil superman story, it wasn't trying to be anything else. I only tolerate Injustice. I haven't played the games, except for the tutorial. Never read the comics. I have no interest in Injustice.

[Vakanai]

Long as they're pastiches, I don't care. I enjoyed Brightburn because it was a blatant evil superman story, it wasn't trying to be anything else. I only tolerate Injustice. I haven't played the games, except for the tutorial. Never read the comics. I have no interest in Injustice.

I also liked Brightburn, but it did seem a little slow paced in parts, and I felt a less serious more humorous tone would've hit the evil horror Superman idea better, but for what it was it was pretty neat. Definitely dark and disturbing in a hard to watch way in a few scenes without going too overboard (that's a complement for this kind of movie). Just the right amount of "holy **** that's gruesome!" without falling into the showers of blood all the time trap.

[DABellWrites]

Next time they do one can they not toss Wonder Woman under the bus so he can have some arm candy to gawk at him in place of Lois?

If you're going to have Superman take over the world, who's better to rule alongside him than Wonder Woman? I'm sick of the "Lois Lane dying" trope too, but realistically speaking, Diana makes the most sense.

[Gaius]

If you're going to have Superman take over the world, who's better to rule alongside him than Wonder Woman? I'm sick of the "Lois Lane dying" trope too, but realistically speaking, Diana makes the most sense.

Because it's an absolutely insulting depiction of her where little to no thought is put in to her beyond just "Clark is so great an noble, so obviously Diana will do whatever he wants". Showcasing how incompetent so many golden boy Superman writers from Mark Waid, to Tom Taylor, and even Alan Moore from his "Twilight of the Superheroes" pitch are at writing her.

[DABellWrites]

Because it's an absolutely insulting depiction of her where little to no thought is put in to her beyond just "Clark is so great an noble, so obviously Diana will do whatever he wants". Showcasing how incompetent so many golden boy Superman writers from Mark Waid, to Tom Taylor, and even Alan Moore from his "Twilight of the Superheroes" pitch are at writing her.

Absolutely agree. I'm just stating the most sense with the whole "evil superman rules the world" trope. As for Moore. I don't know. He createdPromethea and Glory, never read either (yet), but I think Moore love the character Wonder Woman, but he doesn't love what DC has done to her.

[Robanker]

If you're going to have Superman take over the world, who's better to rule alongside him than Wonder Woman? I'm sick of the "Lois Lane dying" trope too, but realistically speaking, Diana makes the most sense.

It makes no sense at all if you respect Diana's character. Taking part in the subjugation of the entire human race "makes the most sense?"

You may as well have her walk into schools and tell little girls their job is to make babies and smile. It's that fucking stupid and disrespectful to everything the character stands for.