The Evil Superman Discussion Thread

[HsssH]

I think that at this point many people consider "mentally unstable naive farmboy from flyover state" as a core characteristic of Superman.

Went to YouTube and to a popular pirate site, you can usually tell the big storylines by what people are viewing there. As you can see, Injustice is insanely popular. Look Yoda they put out five years worth of material for I1, 72 issues for I2, a prequel, a retelling of the first game’s story with Ground Zero, and a goddamn crossover with He-Man. Injustice to Superman is like Flashpoint for Flash or Blackest Night for GL, I’ve seen people unironically say it’s one of the best Superman stories. If you want to pretend it’s not that popular or well known, go ahead, I’ve wished many times myself that were true, but this is the story that has really hooked in lots of people in regards to Superman. People now see Lois dying as a guarantee Superman will go evil because of this story. It’s not a coincidence that we’ve gotten so many evil Superman stories after 2013.

This reminds me of what Tynion said (if I'm not mixing him with someone else) about 90s and how many of the current writers grew up reading comics from that era. How long before we start getting writers and artists for whom Injustice Superman is the Superman?

As for mandates on what to do and what not to do... You might say how Waid's Irredeemable has something interesting to say, but he still decided to do an evil Superman story in the first place.

[DochaDocha]

I think the weakness of Injustice and Justice Lord Superman is that both EVIL SUPERMEN! are the results of one bad day (an expression I'm finding more and more depressing thanks to real-world current events). I'm no expect in human psychology, but I feel like if a guy who's supposed to be good deep down can flip after having a bad day, there's got to be potential for a "good" day to re-convert him. They're both basically portrayed as guys who live their lives like the customary, normal, "good" Superman we know, then you-know-what hits the fan and now they're evil and heat vision the brains (literally) of people who dissent. And for whatever reason, as soon as these guys decided they wanted to be dictators, some combination of Batman and Wonder Woman hop on board right away. It's either that, or these EVIL SUPERMEN! weren't really good guys, but rather just lived good lives and were doomed for failure.

I never hopped on board with Injustice because at its release I thought it was way too derivative and executed worse than other bad Supermen, and once I played the game I was like, "Yeah, this is stupid." The first season of the comic didn't really improve anything for me, either. I did enjoy the Justice Lords story when it originally aired in 2003 or so, but I do think you have to ignore a lot of details in order for it to make sense. You just have to accept the premise at face value, which we as comics fans aren't really wont to do. So, should we should accept it? I think as a one-off, sure, but as a theme for Superman that begs for exploration, you can't just introduce this dark side to Superman 30-something years into his life and reasonably expect him to change so radically while simultaneously insisting he started life out like any other garden variety Superman. Kingdom Come handles an unhinged Superman better, because he doesn't go to such absurd extremes and he demonstrate the abilities to bounce back. Red Son Superman was imprinted upon by Stalin throughout life, and just like Kingdom Come, he still shows the capacity to improve. And even if Red Son Superman wasn't quite redeemable, it still rings truer than either of the "One bad day" Supermen.

[signalman112]

My Favorite Evil Superman is from "Super Friends" .

EvilSuperman.jpg

[phantom1592]

I still think MoS gets too much flack for Superman's supposed unwillingness to protect civilians. Perhaps the movie could've done a better job portraying it, but I don't think it was all that practical for Superman to draw Zod into a secluded location. It's not practical to say Superman could've pushed Zod into another area (controlling space in a fight is never easy, not even in video games...), and if Superman tried to lure Zod to chase him then Zod wasn't going to take the bait. Again, the movie could've done a better job explaining this without necessarily doing 1990s anime nonsense where some observer is narrating, but the idea that Superman was just being callous never rang true to me.

Agreed. I never had a problem with the destruction during a Kryptonian invasion. That's what happens. I'll never forget the overhead shot during either World without a Superman or Funeral for a Friend or soemthign where they showed the damage done during the Doomsday fight. I remember Brainiac messing the city up soemthing fierce too. With powers that high and evenly matched... you don't get to direct the combat how you want... you just do your best and hope to finish it as fast as possible. As it was, I just watched it again last night in prep for Snyder cut... and he was telling people to get inside, get away, Get to safety... He just couldn't MAKE them safe.

This isn't just about plot logistics and realism. The operative word is "should?" and not "could?".

What I mean is when you are asked to do a ground-up reintroduction of Superman in a new continuity separate from the one established before, why would you stage the character and frame the character in this kind of light? Why emphasize the brutality, the collisions, the destructive force of his power? Why should that element of fear and terror be part of introducing everyone to Superman?

Notions of realism are always selective and manipulative. The concept of a superhero is inherently fantastic and strange but the brief and concept is that as an audience you are supposed to identify and like the character and more importantly you are supposed to find the character fun to watch and be around. So I think defenses of "what could Superman do practically" is beside the point, the fact is Snyder deliberately manipulated stuff to frame the character in that specific way when he had a host of other choices.

Honestly, because that's what fans wanted.

Superman Returns got a LOT of criticism because Superman didn't have anyone to punch... No main villain other than Luthor (again...) All Superman vs. Natural disasters... and that final act was 70% Superman stopping falling glass and catching giant globes and leaving Lois in danger just to rescue all the citizens he could... and people complained a LOT about it. (not me.... My biggest complaint was the illegitimate kid and the 5 year time gap... And pretty much everythign about Lois... but Superman doing super things was a BLAST to watch for me )

It's no surprise at all that the next movie went the complete opposite way with all action, punching, violence and destruction and stepped away from the Superman vs. Enviroment that the last movie was.

[Robanker]

To be succinct, I'm pretty tired of this trope but I think the DCAU handled it best with STAS and Justice Lords Superman.

[manwhohaseverything]

So I'm just going to say it,
if you make Superman Evil and the Ultimate Villain of your saga,
he is no different from the Sentry,
it's the fact he doesn't lose control and become the Void that makes him special,
that's what makes him Superman.

What if you don't consider him special for that reason?I get pissed if I see someone abusing a child.I am willing to stop that.This whole notion of superman being special is overrated.As if rest of the world is not.I say batman is also special.so is Spiderman.So is wonder woman. all the rest of them.
The only reason superman's evil version popup is he is not as valuable as batman or the likes.The entire DC is seen through the Nietzschean perspective thereby.In Batman's world superman is either dead or he is two faced white knight.

[GreatKungLao]

https://youtu.be/e-tuoaVIh3k?t=1604

Zack Snyder talks about how in JL2 Superman would've been the main villain and in JL3 he becomes the main hero of the final film. From destroyer of worlds to the savior of worlds.

I think it all aligns well with what he talked in the past in other interviews how Superman is the center of DC Universe, the top of pyramid of all superheroes. So to show how his character influences the entirety of DC Universe both ways good and bad is an interesting idea.

"You just have to decide what kind of man you want to grow up to be, Clark. Whoever that man is good character or bad, he's going to change the world."

[I'm a Fish]

https://youtu.be/e-tuoaVIh3k?t=1604

Zack Snyder talks about how in JL2 Superman would've been the main villain and in JL3 he becomes the main hero of the final film. From destroyer of worlds to the savior of worlds.

I think it all aligns well with what he talked in the past in other interviews how Superman is the center of DC Universe, the top of pyramid of all superheroes. So to show how his character influences the entirety of DC Universe both ways good and bad is an interesting idea.

"You just have to decide what kind of man you want to grow up to be, Clark. Whoever that man is good character or bad, he's going to change the world."

So the world either lives or dies by Super-Jesus and no one else's efforts or beliefs are good enough? Unless, of corse, their Batman.

Yeah, no thanks...the knightmare universe really was just to establish how grateful we should all be for Superman being on our side. It's like thanking someone carrying a gun for not shooting you.

What else would the knightmare universe's be for? Since it would have served no purpose to the plot or character because it was going to be erased and no one was going to remember the events (but the audience of course, so I guess there's that. Audience enjoyment.)

I know I'm being a little dramatic here, but c'mon, he's a superhero. The message should be that we should be glad he helps people, not glad that he doesn't destroy the planet.

[SiegePerilous02]

So the world either lives or dies by Super-Jesus and no one else's efforts or beliefs are good enough? Unless, of corse, their Batman.

Yeah, no thanks...the knightmare universe really was just to establish how grateful we should all be for Superman being on our side. It's like thanking someone carrying a gun for not shooting you.

What else would the knightmare universe's be for? Since it would have served no purpose to the plot or character because it was going to be erased and no one was going to remember the events (but the audience of course, so I guess there's that. Audience enjoyment.)

I know I'm being a little dramatic here, but c'mon, he's a superhero. The message should be that we should be glade he helps people, not glad that he doesn't destroy the planet.

Exactly. Not helped by the fact he spent a big chunk of screen time in the Snyder cut being out of it and a problem for other heroes. Them just went into ass kicking mode to pummel Steppenwolf. Which was deserved, but still. Not a whole lot going on character wise before the planned big fall.

[I'm a Fish]

Also in that interview, Snyder's reason for wanting an evil Superman baffles me. He says he wants to take Superman from one extreme to the other, to break his morality and I guess make Superman a more interesting character by giving him this character arch?

But what character arc? In the leaked plot, evil Superman was going to disappear when Flash runs back to alter the time line. Superman was going to have no memories of evil Superman. Superman was never going to meet evil Superman.

That's not a character arc. Superman learns nothing.

It's like having a nightmare were you're a bad guy and waking up with no memory of that dream you had. Not only does it not matter because it's not reality (it's a dream), but it doesn't even effect your view of yourself or the world because you don't remember it, you don't confront it.

The Knightmare timeline would be fine as an elseworld story, but in a Justice League trilogy it baffles me that it was a plot point. Why waste so much screen time for a plot that gets erased without a trace? Maybe Snyder would have fixed it so Superman remembers, but who knows.

[TheBlackTerror]

My Favorite Evil Superman is from "Super Friends" .

EvilSuperman.jpg

Gotta admit I love this episode of Superfriends. And even though neither are (of course) allowed to throw a punch, The “fight” between Superman and Batman in this episode is far closer to what would actually happen in a conflict between these two compared to “Knightmare” or Injustice.

Course I’m old so I want the two to be the World’s Finest team. Silly, cause it apparently doesn’t move product the way the Evil Superman trope does...

[Ra-El]

Also in that interview, Snyder's reason for wanting an evil Superman baffles me. He says he wants to take Superman from one extreme to the other, to break his morality and I guess make Superman a more interesting character by giving him this character arch?

But what character arc? In the leaked plot, evil Superman was going to disappear when Flash runs back to alter the time line. Superman was going to have no memories of evil Superman. Superman was never going to meet evil Superman.

That's not a character arc. Superman learns nothing.

It's like having a nightmare were you're a bad guy and waking up with no memory of that dream you had. Not only does it not matter because it's not reality (it's a dream), but it doesn't even effect your view of yourself or the world because you don't remember it, you don't confront it.

The Knightmare timeline would be fine as an elseworld story, but in a Justice League trilogy it baffles me that it was a plot point. Why waste so much screen time for a plot that gets erased without a trace? Maybe Snyder would have fixed it so Superman remembers, but who knows.

Pretty much this. Superman isn't a character for Snyder, at least not since DC let him use Batman. Superman is just a plot device. And let's be honest, Zack Snyder won't be able to give us a better Evil Superman than The Boys did, Homelander is great and is all the evil Superman I needed.

[Prime]

Now we have to thank Omni Man as well for this.

[Prime]

https://youtu.be/e-tuoaVIh3k?t=1604

Zack Snyder talks about how in JL2 Superman would've been the main villain and in JL3 he becomes the main hero of the final film. From destroyer of worlds to the savior of worlds.

I think it all aligns well with what he talked in the past in other interviews how Superman is the center of DC Universe, the top of pyramid of all superheroes. So to show how his character influences the entirety of DC Universe both ways good and bad is an interesting idea.

"You just have to decide what kind of man you want to grow up to be, Clark. Whoever that man is good character or bad, he's going to change the world."

This sounds awful in every way possible. Zack Snyder should not touch these characters again.

[Ra-El]

Now we have to thank Omni Man as well for this.

Ha! I love Invincible and the animation is honoring the source material in the best way possible. And yes, Omni Man is just another great example of evil Superman troupe done right. Again, Snyder brainwashed Superman just can't compete, DC should use Superman as the hero he is, instead of a villain for Batman and the JL to beat.