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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I'm curious... If PD Superman shows up one day in the MU, would the Stan Lee heroes have years of experience on him or would he be retconned into having always been there like Sentry?

    Having a rookie 22-year old Superman and Batman next to a 28-year old veteran Spider-Man would be trippy.
    It could go either way. But the latter option is funnier to me.

  2. #77
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Well the t-shirt and jeans thing wouldn't be part of public domain for many decades; that only came in with Morrison's Action in 2011.

    But yeah, there's a lot of common ground between OG Clark and Luke Cage. But really, the same can be said for basically every superhero out there; Clark is the blueprint everyone else is built off of. He'd still be different enough from Luke and everyone else to warrant a position in the publishing line somewhere.

    And OG Clark had super speed, which Luke doesn't (not Flash or Quicksilver levels of super speed, but "breaking the speed of sound" super speed). In fact I can't really think of many Marvel characters who use the OG powerset; most either have strength but not speed, or they're the high-level powerhouses with a laundry list of abilities where strength/speed are just two of the weapons in their arsenal. Among Marvel's bigger franchise names, does anyone just have the strength-speed-durability combo that Golden Age Superman does?
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    It could go either way. But the latter option is funnier to me.
    It would probably be a bit like how Iron Man is made into someone Peter's life revolves around in the MCU, when in fact Spider-Man is his senior in publication and was an active superhero at the time he had his origin story.

    I mean Spider-Man's first reaction to meeting Iron Man in comics is more or less, "Do I know you" and then we have those wretched MCU Spider-Man films where he's treated like some fanboy of a character who debuted after him.

  4. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Well the t-shirt and jeans thing wouldn't be part of public domain for many decades; that only came in with Morrison's Action in 2011.

    But yeah, there's a lot of common ground between OG Clark and Luke Cage. But really, the same can be said for basically every superhero out there; Clark is the blueprint everyone else is built off of. He'd still be different enough from Luke and everyone else to warrant a position in the publishing line somewhere.

    And OG Clark had super speed, which Luke doesn't (not Flash or Quicksilver levels of super speed, but "breaking the speed of sound" super speed). In fact I can't really think of many Marvel characters who use the OG powerset; most either have strength but not speed, or they're the high-level powerhouses with a laundry list of abilities where strength/speed are just two of the weapons in their arsenal. Among Marvel's bigger franchise names, does anyone just have the strength-speed-durability combo that Golden Age Superman does?
    Warpath from the New Mutants comes to mind. My pitch for a Warpath solo would be "Golden Age Superman on an Apache reservation".

  5. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It would probably be a bit like how Iron Man is made into someone Peter's life revolves around in the MCU, when in fact Spider-Man is his senior in publication and was an active superhero at the time he had his origin story.

    I mean Spider-Man's first reaction to meeting Iron Man in comics is more or less, "Do I know you" and then we have those wretched MCU Spider-Man films where he's treated like some fanboy of a character who debuted after him.
    That got started in Ultimate Spiderman by Brian Michael Bendis. It makes sense for what they are going for. Granted I wouldn't see Maguire's take fanboying over Iron Man that much. Maybe Cap but not Iron Man.

    Garfield probably was a fan of Iron Man before he got his powers. Afterwards he's probably more skeptical of him.

  6. #81
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    "SUPERMAN! Champion of the Oppressed!"
    Interesting. I never saw Superman as that type of character. But connotations change and I'm sure there was quite a bit of blindspotting in such hyperbolic proclamations.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    Warpath from the New Mutants comes to mind. My pitch for a Warpath solo would be "Golden Age Superman on an Apache reservation".
    Oh yeah, I loved that guy. Isn't he dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Interesting. I never saw Superman as that type of character. But connotations change and I'm sure there was quite a bit of blindspotting in such hyperbolic proclamations.
    Have you ever read the original Golden Age stories? Because there's no other way to describe that Superman; he went after wife beaters, corrupt businessmen and politicians.....everything he did was about helping the little guy, not stopping huge world-ending threats or beating up super villains, but making sure a employer started using proper safety measures in his coal mine, or breaking down the governor's door in the middle of the night to save the life of a woman wrongfully on death row.

    He even tackled racism and sexism, back when such things were still the accepted norm. Were the stories perfect? Hardly, and you'll still see blindspots in the narrative because it was the 30's and 40's, but Clark didn't become a household name because he beat up green, city-shrinking aliens.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  8. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Oh yeah, I loved that guy. Isn't he dead?



    Have you ever read the original Golden Age stories? Because there's no other way to describe that Superman; he went after wife beaters, corrupt businessmen and politicians.....everything he did was about helping the little guy, not stopping huge world-ending threats or beating up super villains, but making sure a employer started using proper safety measures in his coal mine, or breaking down the governor's door in the middle of the night to save the life of a woman wrongfully on death row.

    He even tackled racism and sexism, back when such things were still the accepted norm. Were the stories perfect? Hardly, and you'll still see blindspots in the narrative because it was the 30's and 40's, but Clark didn't become a household name because he beat up green, city-shrinking aliens.
    He came back or is still alive in the most recent New Mutant issues. His brother Thunderbird was known for being dead but I think he's back too.

  9. #84

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    Disney would make an animated Superman musical.
    december 21st has passed where are my superpowers?

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    Disney would make an animated Superman musical.
    They kind of already did that with Hercules (which is basically Superman with Greek Myth stylings, they even have a purple-dressed love interest who trades snappy quips from a screwball comedy).

  11. #86
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    I'd rather they didn't do that. They've already got a really interesting Superman pastiche in Supreme I'd rather see explored.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    He came back or is still alive in the most recent New Mutant issues. His brother Thunderbird was known for being dead but I think he's back too.
    Could've sworn Warpath died in one of the X-Force titles from a few years back.....

    Thunderbird is alive now too? Wow, I am *really* behind with the X-Men.

    Anyway, someone was asking about how Marvel could introduce Clark, how old he'd be, whether he'd be a rookie hero surrounded by highly experienced Avengers or if he'd have "always been there" off panel for years or even decades. And really, I think you could bring Clark into the MU in any number of ways; it's all about telling a good story right? I don't think any of those options are any better or worse than the others. I think you just gotta find a narrative that's true to the original Superman but fits within the framework of Marvel. Which is all a hell of a lot easier to say than actually do, of course.

    If it were me (and I haven't given this a lot of thought so maybe I'd change my mind if I actually sat down to write it), I'd maybe bring him in at the same generalized age as Tony, Cyclops, Banner, etc. That vague "late 20's/early 30's" age range. I'd have him be new to wearing a costume but not new to heroic acts, but the main thrust of how I think I'd incorporate Superman into Marvel is to have him be quite critical of superheroes and their role in the world. I'd have Clark be the guy who says "Thor stopped the Wrecking Crew from robbing a bank, and that's fine....but the bank was insured and the battle destroyed a bunch of small businesses and personal property; people who aren't likely to get a payout from their insurance if they even had it, who's entire livelihoods were ruined while Thor protected a banker's money. So who is Thor really helping here?"

    I wouldn't have Clark be JJJ "Menace!" levels of crazy, but he'd be the guy looking at heroes and wondering if they're really doing the job right, if they're really worthy of the mantle "hero" and questioning if all the Civil Wars, AvX's, and superhuman military-industrial complexes are really solutions to the real problems real people face.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I'd rather they didn't do that. They've already got a really interesting Superman pastiche in Supreme I'd rather see explored.
    That's not Marvel and I don't think they have the rights for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Anyway, someone was asking about how Marvel could introduce Clark, how old he'd be, whether he'd be a rookie hero surrounded by highly experienced Avengers or if he'd have "always been there" off panel for years or even decades. And really, I think you could bring Clark into the MU in any number of ways; it's all about telling a good story right? I don't think any of those options are any better or worse than the others. I think you just gotta find a narrative that's true to the original Superman but fits within the framework of Marvel. Which is all a hell of a lot easier to say than actually do, of course.
    How to insert Superman is a challenge for the writers/editorial. I think the first story arc should be a "test drive" i.e. show Superman active as a status-quo in the MU, a bit like Black Panther and Spider-Man's cameos in Captain America Civil War, which introduced them without spelling their backstory and the "how" of them being in the world, leaving that to the solo films.

    One way is to follow the pattern of how Kirby brought Namor into the Marvel Universe by making some hobo that Johnny Storm runs into in Fantastic Four #3 into Namor. That one sequence where Johnny shaved the guy and revealed Namor essentially made Golden Age Timely (Captain America, Namor, Bucky) canonical to the new MU created through Fantastic Four.

    If it were me (and I haven't given this a lot of thought so maybe I'd change my mind if I actually sat down to write it), I'd maybe bring him in at the same generalized age as Tony, Cyclops, Banner, etc. That vague "late 20's/early 30's" age range. I'd have him be new to wearing a costume but not new to heroic acts, but the main thrust of how I think I'd incorporate Superman into Marvel is to have him be quite critical of superheroes and their role in the world. I'd have Clark be the guy who says "Thor stopped the Wrecking Crew from robbing a bank, and that's fine....but the bank was insured and the battle destroyed a bunch of small businesses and personal property; people who aren't likely to get a payout from their insurance if they even had it, who's entire livelihoods were ruined while Thor protected a banker's money. So who is Thor really helping here?"

    I wouldn't have Clark be JJJ "Menace!" levels of crazy, but he'd be the guy looking at heroes and wondering if they're really doing the job right, if they're really worthy of the mantle "hero" and questioning if all the Civil Wars, AvX's, and superhuman military-industrial complexes are really solutions to the real problems real people face.
    Golden Age Superman wouldn't have that attitude. That dude was big into collateral damage for the sake of a greater cause. He actually tore down an entire slum to better motivate redevelopment, lol.

    One way would be to Wolverine it. Introduce Clark Kent as an amnesiac who has forgotten who he is, who has "dreams of another life another universe even" and make his rediscovery of his powers and his memories into a character-arc that way you can have him explore different parts of the Marvel Universe trying to see if anyone has an answers...is he a mutant, have him visit Prof. X and the X-Men, is he an Inhuman, send him to Attilan, have him seek help from the FF only for Doom to take an interest in him and decide to try and steal his powers (because Doom). That way you can tease out many different possible origins for the character in the MU while also building the character up.

    Or alternately, have Clark Kent be a regular human being for most of his life with his powers suppressed or unknown to him. That way when he becomes Superman you have a heightened contrast between Superman and his Clark Kent persona and you get that sense of wish-fulfillment because you have a guy who has spent the most active parts of the MU as a random civilian watching the heroes move around him and so on. Then he finds out he has powers and realizes he was never normal and have him investigate his past. That way you can be true to how Superman was introduced in AC#1 where he came from an orphanage and where Siegel and Shuster left out the details of how Clark learned he came from another planet and what he was doing until he turned 30 unexplained at the time.

  14. #89
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    How to insert Superman is a challenge for the writers/editorial. I think the first story arc should be a "test drive" i.e. show Superman active as a status-quo in the MU
    I agree; I think a miniseries or an arc in something like Avengers (or whatever book is most appropriate) might be a solid way to dip a toe into the pool and see how fans react to Clark's inclusion. Launching a full blown ongoing might be biting off a bit more than they can chew, and I feel like the balancing act of including this particular character into this particular universe.....lots of moving parts and expectations to manage there, and going all-in right outta the gate might not be the wisest choice (it seems to have worked for Conan, but I dunno if Clark could pull that off given his public profile and role at DC). Or maybe it would, not like I work in publishing so what the hell do I know?

    Golden Age Superman wouldn't have that attitude. That dude was big into collateral damage for the sake of a greater cause. He actually tore down an entire slum to better motivate redevelopment, lol.
    I think you misunderstood me; I'm not saying Clark wouldn't create his own collateral damage, just that he'd be more aware of how it impacts regular people and he'd do more to fix what he broke. You're right, OG Clark would tear down a slum and either make the property owner rebuilt it, or do it himself. But he's tearing it down for a purpose; to help the people living there. In the example I posted above, Thor and the Wrecking Crew might destroy that same building, but not because it's subpar housing and Thor wouldn't necessarily do anything to fix it (in some stories he does, but it's quite rare). Clark on the other hand, would make sure the damage was fixed and that each resident's belongings were replaced. It's the difference between a hero leaving the scene after a big fight and a hero sticking around afterwards to clean up after themselves. And while we do see heroes help clean up after a fight, it's not common. I know there's things like Damage Control out there who do all the clean-up, but OG Clark might figure that if you broke it, it's your job to fix it and not leave that for someone else to deal with.

    That, I think, could be the crux of Marvel Superman; an awareness and concern for how the actions of heroes hurt the little guy. He'd be disgusted by things like the Stamford incident, equally disgusted by the SHRA, and I can see him holding a general opinion that heroes have lost sight of their purpose and worry more about what SHIELD tells them, or protecting a bank's insured assets, than whether the lives or ordinary people have improved because of the hero's actions.

    It's great to save the universe and keep the earth spinning, obviously heroes need to stave off those extinction-level events, but I think Clark might see that as the difference between "surviving" and "living."
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    And Hercules, the only successful superhero take on Herc at any rate.
    I'd say Disney's Hercules (which is basically Superman in all but name) is a better example of such. Marvel's Hercules has historically failed to maintain a solo and there is a reason we have heard nothing of an MCU Hercules movie or t.v. series.

    Marvel usually lets DC do the Classical Stuff but DC historically have never really integrated Greek Myth properly even in Wonder Woman's corner.
    Perez, Jiminez, Rucka and Azzarello easily disprove this.

    The way Neil Gaiman in his Vertigo Sandman comics used Greek and Ancient Mythos was so far and beyond what DC ever did, or how Kirby-Lee used Norse Myth.
    Vertigo is still DC. Marvel's take on Norse mythology has rarely been good and Kriby's take is not one of its best ones.

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