Would You Want Marvel To Use A Public Domain Superman? Others?

[Ascended]

Marvel would be able to use Superman in their other comics as long as they never develop any plots or costume designs which conflict with later versions of Superman. Lawyers will constantly be on retainer from both sides.

That's what I thought too, but apparently it's not that difficult to avoid legal encroachment. Marvel's Superman could fight an alien tyrant, he just couldn't fight an alien tyrant named Brainiac who bottles cities (not until Brainiac himself entered public domain anyway). Lot more leeway than you might expect, I guess.

With so many Superman comics out there you'd probably want a database with names and stuff, just to ensure you don't accidentally come up with the same ridiculous name or gimmick, but that's not a big deal, hell there's fan databases which tracks that already I think. Having to check every script and appearance would definitely be a pain in the ass, and could be a reason for Marvel not to bother with him, but I don't think it's that big a hurdle...more like a minor annoyance.

If Action Comics#1 Superman comes to Marvel, and you have Superman, his Clark Kent persona, and Lois Lane, you have plenty of stuff to work with.

Lois Lane can become a supporting character inserted with the Daily Bugle or as a friend to Jessica Jones' investigations or Ben Urich and so on. As can Clark Kent of course.

Now in terms of where a PD Superman can fit in Marvel, you have options. In terms of precedent, the obvious one is how Conan the Barbarian has been integrated into Marvel continuity recently. Other ones include Angela from Gaiman's Spawn comics, you also have Marvel's history of working in PD characters like Dracula as a major supervillain and figure who's central to their magic lore. Also Shuma Gorath. And Morgan Le Fay. ​

Marvel does seem to have been successful bringing in public domain figures. Oh, they used Ares for a while too. Not sure how successful we can call him though.

I dunno about the Bugle. It's an obvious go-to, the Super cast dealing with JJJ would be great fun, and it'd help integrate the Supers into the MU, but I think it might be more fun if Clark and Lois remained at the Daily Star (the newspaper from Action #1) and that paper was the Bugle's chief rival, or something. Is Parker working at the paper these days? I think Parker and a Golden Age flavored Superman would have a really fun dynamic and I like the idea of Clark and Peter being friends, but work rivals.

I tell you what, I would not envy the person who Marvel hires to introduce their version of Superman. Lots of expectations on that name, and fitting him around the MU....hell of a needle to thread, I think, in a way that could last and not just fade away like so many others have.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Marvel does seem to have been successful bringing in public domain figures. Oh, they used Ares for a while too. Not sure how successful we can call him though.

And Hercules, the only successful superhero take on Herc at any rate. Marvel usually lets DC do the Classical Stuff but DC historically have never really integrated Greek Myth properly even in Wonder Woman's corner. The way Neil Gaiman in his Vertigo Sandman comics used Greek and Ancient Mythos was so far and beyond what DC ever did, or how Kirby-Lee used Norse Myth.

I dunno about the Bugle. It's an obvious go-to, the Super cast dealing with JJJ would be great fun, and it'd help integrate the Supers into the MU, but I think it might be more fun if Clark and Lois remained at the Daily Star (the newspaper from Action #1) and that paper was the Bugle's chief rival, or something. Is Parker working at the paper these days? I think Parker and a Golden Age flavored Superman would have a really fun dynamic and I like the idea of Clark and Peter being friends, but work rivals.

Peter Parker and the Daily Bugle cast lately hasn't featured much in Spider-Man comics, because the age of smartphones has killed the whole "Take pictures of Spider-Man" in terms of believability. The age of film cameras, slow-shutter speed and careful ISO made it more believable that only Peter could take pics but with digital where you can go frame by frame and shoot videos endlessly it doesn't work as before. Aside for a few issues in the poorly regarded BND era, in the 21st Century, Peter Parker's been a high school teacher (his best civilian job and identity ever), then we have him working for Horizon Labs, then as a businessman in Parker Industries (his work civilian thing ever), and then science editor for Daily Bugle (!) and now back in the university as a TA.

So Superman and Lois can make the Bugle feel central again as a permanent supporting fixture. So they can add and solve a problem in Marvel Continuity at present. And AC#1 Superman answers a few questions in terms of how can you feature someone so powerful without breaking stories since Superman can't fly or have heat vision yet but merely jump very very high and so on.

The best way to how it could work is the Fleischer Bros' cartoons. In those cartoons, you have Superman, Clark, Lois, but no rogues or villains. Just random threats and one-and-done villains. So you can totally do Superman with the bare essentials and make him work.

Besides, Marvel has Doctor Doom with whom Superman had exceptional chemistry in Jim Shooter's second Marvel/DC crossover. So it could work well.

I tell you what, I would not envy the person who Marvel hires to introduce their version of Superman. Lots of expectations on that name, and fitting him around the MU....hell of a needle to thread, I think, in a way that could last and not just fade away like so many others have.

Well it would also a killer job to have on your resume if you get it right. And Marvel would have no shortage in terms of who they can call.
-- Mark Waid, who always claims Superman is his favorite character but thanks to personal baggage is perennially a bridesmaid at DC in terms of getting to write the Superman comics.
-- Roger Stern, part of the 80s Superman writing team and a long-time Marvel denizen.
-- Chris Claremont who has a long exclusive contract at Marvel and who would do this well.
-- Louise Simonson, ditto with Stern.
-- Donny Cates, who likes doing powerful characters.
-- And many others.

[Digifiend]

I dunno about the Bugle. It's an obvious go-to, the Super cast dealing with JJJ would be great fun, and it'd help integrate the Supers into the MU, but I think it might be more fun if Clark and Lois remained at the Daily Star (the newspaper from Action #1) and that paper was the Bugle's chief rival, or something. Is Parker working at the paper these days? I think Parker and a Golden Age flavored Superman would have a really fun dynamic and I like the idea of Clark and Peter being friends, but work rivals.

Peter did go back to the Bugle, as science editor instead of photographer, but he was fired because they found out he plagiarised Doctor Octopus, causing his degree to be revoked. In reality, it was actually Otto who copied his own work, as he got the degree in Superior Spider-Man. Peter went back to college to get his degree legitimately, while earning money by being a teaching assistant to Curt Conners. It also helps him to keep an eye on Ghost-Spider, who is also a student at ESU. He helped Gwen to enrol.

[Drops Of Venus]

Honestly... no. I imagine there is an unspoken code between Marvel and DC when it comes to these things. Like, they can make satire and homage to one another (like with the Squadron Supreme), but actually ''stealing'' THE character from the the other company seems like it would be... uncourteous? Obviously not illegal if the character is in public domain, but I think it would be more of a moral decision, as to not step on DC's toes. And no, I don't think you can compare Superman to other public domain characters like Hercules or Thor. Those characters have existed independently for most of their existence and were never really so closely associated with any private company. But Superman is DC's baby. You can't really think of him without thinking of DC. Their main competitor publishing their biggest hero seems like something that would definitely be awkward for both companies. I don't know, maybe this is me being naive and believing in the best of corporate people when they might just be ruthless and not care, but I just don't see Marvel doing this unless DC specifically licenses the character to them, and there are agreements about what they can or cannot do. I imagine Marvel would want the same ''respect'' from DC when the Marvel characters enter public domain as well.

[Ascended]

Remember how Thor used to occasionally run into Clark Kent back in the Simonson days? It was this little running gag that they lived in the same building, but of course you never saw Clark do anything super. I would totally retcon that into being the actual Clark Kent; dude was hiding in the MU this whole time!

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Honestly... no. I imagine there is an unspoken code between Marvel and DC when it comes to these things.

The actual code is never get in a position where your competition can screw you over because they will and we would them.

DC Comics has a history of outright buying and steamrolling competition -- Fawcett, Quality, Charlton, Milestone, WildStorm.

Marvel has also bought out comics labels as well, though not to the same extent. But basically, if DC could, they would buy Marvel and put them to pasture. As will Marvel the same to DC. The only thing that might give them pause is the possibility of an anti-trust suit leading to cries of monopoly. But absent that, nobody would bat an eye.

And no, I don't think you can compare Superman to other public domain characters like Hercules or Thor. Those characters have existed independently for most of their existence and were never really so closely associated with any private company.

Hercules and Thor predate several stages of civilization that led to the development of copyright, and capitalism and so on. So it's a laughable comparison.

Sherlock Holmes, Frankenstein, Dracula, Jules Verne stuff, The Mask of Zorro, are better examples. All of them were private licensed-own characters who eventually fell into public domain. H. P. Lovecraft and his creations -- Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep, Necronomicon, Arkham (a town in his fictional version of New England that became the name of the most famous fictional asylum in comics) -- show up across a range of fiction all without going to Lovecraft or his estate (nonexistent because he had no children).

But Superman is DC's baby.

A baby they stole from his parents and to paraphrase Alan Moore (who knows from where he speaks) occassionally sends pictrues showing their grown-up child at work in a sleazy job.

You can't really think of him without thinking of DC.

When the character made his debut, the company was called National Publications and later National Comics and it took ages before they became DC.

Their main competitor publishing their biggest hero seems like something that would definitely be awkward for both companies.

DC and Marvel are not actually sentient beings. They are corporations manned by people all of whom are individuals and whose true loyalty is to their paycheck.

I imagine Marvel would want the same ''respect'' from DC when the Marvel characters enter public domain as well.

The first Marvel characters who would enter Public Domain would be Namor, Captain America, the Carl Burgos' Human Torch, Bucky.

By the time Marvel's real moneymakers step into PD you are looking at the 2050s (i.e. Fantastic, Four, Spider-Man, Hulk, Avengers, X-Men). So Marvel can exploit and screw over DC long before DC or anyone else are in position to screw them over.

If Mickey Mouse enters PD in 2024, you can be certain WB will put out a new cartoon series -- Bugs and Mickey, exploiting the decade of advantage they hold before the Looney Tunes enter PD.

[Killerbee911]

There isn't much benefit to Superman in Marvel imo, Superman works at DC because he is THE hero, The reason the superman clones haven't work at Marvel (and the closest version to working imo being Sentry) because they aren't allowed to be "The Man". Sentry was allowed to be the man for a little bit and you saw flashes of him working, then they start to treat him like a regular Marvel character which means he is going to lose(see Thor and Hulk) or at times devalued because at Marvel deconstructing and breaking your characters is standard fare. Which lead to Sentry falling off imo

Yes Superman would work a lot better than Sentry but at Marvel "the Man" slot has been held by Cap, Iron Man, Black Panther and even Captain Marvel a little bit. "The most powerful superhero" has been held by Hulk, Thor, Sentry, Silver Surfer, etc. The point being Superman isn't a good fit for a universe that is willing to shift the top roles. Superman at Marvel would just be "Thor" which is more than good enough but without a whole universe built to prop up and praise the character the "OMG" factor of Superman isn't going to be there.

Now Public Domain Flash (or Wonder Woman) those are different stories. Marvel is built for timeline screw-ups that Public Domain Flash would bring and no character worth mentioning is in his lane at Marvel.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

There isn't much benefit to Superman in Marvel, Superman works at DC because he is THE hero,

All the "evil Superman" stories DC has put out recently and the Batgod shtick they do puts the lie to that.

The reason the superman clones haven't work at Marvel (and the closest version to working imo being Sentry) because they aren't allowed to be "The Man".

There's more to Superman than being "The Man".

[Ra-El]

I honestly think the vast amount of Superman clones we’ve seen through Marvel kind of showcase how Superman would be used. He’d pop up, be shown how powerful he is and presented as this amazing godlike powerhouse, just to be trumped by something insert Knull, Galactus, The Beyonders, Magic Galactus just so a veteran Marvel character could look even more epic by contending better or beating what Superman couldn’t.

If he got his own title I’d be curious to see if Marvel could outdo sales of DC in handling Superman that would be a fun rivalry right there. But with a morality similar to Captain America and a power placement in universe like Thor I don’t see him in the Marvel universe doing him much favors other then seeing some really cool team ups and interacting with characters people might of wanted to see him interact with more.

So Superman would have at Marvel the exact same role he have at DC for the last 30+ years?

[Killerbee911]

There's more to Superman than being "The Man".

I never said there wasn't but other Marvel heroes as good or better than superman in that "more" area namely Cap and Spiderman. Superhero comics are about finding a elite niche and Superman elite niche is being "the greatest superhero in the world" aka the Man. Without being the man he is inspiring never give up boy scout style hero. I just think it is overall pointless to bring Superman even a public domain version to Marvel because they won't give any hero at Marvel extended run as "The Man". DC revolves around Batman and Superman, lesser degree Justice League the 7 from that group ,Marvel does not revolve around any singular hero or heroes.

Anyways before I get too off track I think he would literally he would be "Thor" which isn't a diss, I think a public domain Superman at Marvel could be top 15 to 25 book. Only issue in that is I think that they could do that with Hyperion, Blue Marvel, Sentry, Heck they are nearly pulling it off with Captain Marvel. But to me to make the best use of Superman you have to be willing to push him over and at the expense at times of other heroes. So any place that won't commit to pushing as main hero and best hero isn't a good fit for him imo. Marvel is one of the few spots (maybe only spot) that would be a bad fit. I think every place else can pull off "the permanent greatest superhero in the world" thing with Superman.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Without being the man he is inspiring never give up boy scout style hero.

Which would be a great thing to have in Marvel on the whole.

Only issue in that is I think that they could do that with Hyperion, Blue Marvel, Sentry,

Marvel's pretty good at finding a niche for its characters, even ones who are too similar. Spider-Man and Daredevil initially started out as a fairly similar adventure hero title with Daredevil being disabled but also a jokey wisecracking optimistic adventurer. Eventually Frank Miller came up and transformed Daredevil into a title that you could use to tackle stories you could never do in Spider-Man.

Technically whatever you do with Hawkeye you can do with Daredevil, Spider-Man, the Punisher, Moon Knight, or any other "street" hero but even with all that you still have Hawkeye.

[kalai]

Jim Shooter did say DC or Warner tried to sell Superman to Marvel in the 80s.

[Killerbee911]

Like I said it can work to degree, I just think Marvel can do it with other characters. In fact Marvel already went through the trouble of doing ground work with Sentry. I don't see what you can do with Public domain Superman that you can't do with a sane Robert Reynolds.

[JudicatorPrime]

DC and Marvel are not actually sentient beings. They are corporations manned by people all of whom are individuals and whose true loyalty is to their paycheck.

An interesting take considering corporations are people with natural rights and wholly separate entities from the individuals who comprise them according to legal doctrine.

[Digifiend]

DC Comics has a history of outright buying and steamrolling competition -- Fawcett, Quality, Charlton, Milestone, WildStorm.

DC doesn't actually own Milestone, despite the fact three Milestone characters are in the Young Justice cartoon.

Now Public Domain Flash (or Wonder Woman) those are different stories. Marvel is built for timeline screw-ups that Public Domain Flash would bring and no character worth mentioning is in his lane at Marvel.

But the Flash who would go public domain is Jay Garrick. Those timeline stories didn't happen in his era, it's a Barry Allen thing.