Would You Want Marvel To Use A Public Domain Superman? Others?

[Agent Z]

All the "evil Superman" stories DC has put out recently and the Batgod shtick they do puts the lie to that.

Pseudoman, the Sentry, Gladiator, Ethan Edwards and Hyperion. Marvel has been obsessed with evil Superman for far longer than DC and unlike the latter, they don't have a consistently heroic take on the character who is used regularly.

[Digifiend]

I'd say Disney's Hercules (which is basically Superman in all but name) is a better example of such. Marvel's Hercules has historically failed to maintain a solo and there is a reason we have heard nothing of an MCU Hercules movie or t.v. series.

Heh, I can imagine detractors slating it and calling for Kevin Sorbo to come back (he starred in Hercules: The Legendary Journeys).

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I think PD Superman doesn't have much to offer other than the basics. So Marvel would probably tie him to an existing IP. Like he's related to Kang or grew up in Rhodesia or Latveria etc.

I think Marvel and other existing universes like Valiant, Catalyst Prime, Archie, Hellboy, Humanoids etc would get more mileage out of Superman.

[Agent Z]

Heh, I can imagine detractors slating it and calling for Kevin Sorbo to come back (he starred in Hercules: The Legendary Journeys).

Given his support of the Capitol insurrectionists, I doubt Disney would agree to such demands.

[witchboy]

That's not Marvel and I don't think they have the rights for that.



How to insert Superman is a challenge for the writers/editorial. I think the first story arc should be a "test drive" i.e. show Superman active as a status-quo in the MU, a bit like Black Panther and Spider-Man's cameos in Captain America Civil War, which introduced them without spelling their backstory and the "how" of them being in the world, leaving that to the solo films.

One way is to follow the pattern of how Kirby brought Namor into the Marvel Universe by making some hobo that Johnny Storm runs into in Fantastic Four #3 into Namor. That one sequence where Johnny shaved the guy and revealed Namor essentially made Golden Age Timely (Captain America, Namor, Bucky) canonical to the new MU created through Fantastic Four.



Golden Age Superman wouldn't have that attitude. That dude was big into collateral damage for the sake of a greater cause. He actually tore down an entire slum to better motivate redevelopment, lol.

One way would be to Wolverine it. Introduce Clark Kent as an amnesiac who has forgotten who he is, who has "dreams of another life another universe even" and make his rediscovery of his powers and his memories into a character-arc that way you can have him explore different parts of the Marvel Universe trying to see if anyone has an answers...is he a mutant, have him visit Prof. X and the X-Men, is he an Inhuman, send him to Attilan, have him seek help from the FF only for Doom to take an interest in him and decide to try and steal his powers (because Doom). That way you can tease out many different possible origins for the character in the MU while also building the character up.

Or alternately, have Clark Kent be a regular human being for most of his life with his powers suppressed or unknown to him. That way when he becomes Superman you have a heightened contrast between Superman and his Clark Kent persona and you get that sense of wish-fulfillment because you have a guy who has spent the most active parts of the MU as a random civilian watching the heroes move around him and so on. Then he finds out he has powers and realizes he was never normal and have him investigate his past. That way you can be true to how Superman was introduced in AC#1 where he came from an orphanage and where Siegel and Shuster left out the details of how Clark learned he came from another planet and what he was doing until he turned 30 unexplained at the time.

Ah, I mean Sentry. Got the names mixed up, sorry.

[Ascended]

I think PD Superman doesn't have much to offer other than the basics. So Marvel would probably tie him to an existing IP. Like he's related to Kang or grew up in Rhodesia or Latveria etc.

I think Marvel and other existing universes like Valiant, Catalyst Prime, Archie, Hellboy, Humanoids etc would get more mileage out of Superman.

We'll see in a few years if anyone other than DC using Superman is actually viable, or even legally possible. Maybe corporations don't fight for another extension of public domain law, since it's an uphill battle without public support. Maybe they find other ways to protect their IP's and keep them out of everyone else's hands. Or maybe they just lobby congress again and successfully extend the law. Time will tell.

But yeah, public domain Superman would offer just the basics....and that's enough. You can tell countless stories, recognizable as Superman stories, with just those basics. And every year new things would enter the PD; you'd get Ultra-Humanite in year 2, flight a year or so after, etc.

A new publisher looking to fold Clark into their world probably would connect him to established concepts within the framework I think, both to mesh Clark into the setting and to round out Clark's new mythos. Him and Lois working for the Bugle seems like a good choice, since apparently Spidey isn't using the place anymore, but I don't think you really need to reinvent the wheel or stray too far from the source; even the basic blueprint that is Golden Age Superman offers enough to build a sustainable, solo mythology from.

I'd think one of the biggest questions is whether readers would accept a Superman who isn't DC's; even if Marvel or Dynamite or IDW made their own version, and even if those versions were well made, would readers bite or just stick with the original?

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

We'll see in a few years if anyone other than DC using Superman is actually viable, or even legally possible. Maybe corporations don't fight for another extension of public domain law, since it's an uphill battle without public support. Maybe they find other ways to protect their IP's and keep them out of everyone else's hands. Or maybe they just lobby congress again and successfully extend the law. Time will tell.

But yeah, public domain Superman would offer just the basics....and that's enough. You can tell countless stories, recognizable as Superman stories, with just those basics. And every year new things would enter the PD; you'd get Ultra-Humanite in year 2, flight a year or so after, etc.

A new publisher looking to fold Clark into their world probably would connect him to established concepts within the framework I think, both to mesh Clark into the setting and to round out Clark's new mythos. Him and Lois working for the Bugle seems like a good choice, since apparently Spidey isn't using the place anymore, but I don't think you really need to reinvent the wheel or stray too far from the source; even the basic blueprint that is Golden Age Superman offers enough to build a sustainable, solo mythology from.

I'd think one of the biggest questions is whether readers would accept a Superman who isn't DC's; even if Marvel or Dynamite or IDW made their own version, and even if those versions were well made, would readers bite or just stick with the original?

I don't think we'll know until it happens.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I'd think one of the biggest questions is whether readers would accept a Superman who isn't DC's; even if Marvel or Dynamite or IDW made their own version, and even if those versions were well made, would readers bite or just stick with the original?

As far as Marvel and DC superheroes go, I don't know if fans have a version they perceive as the "original" the way that movie characters from films that were later remade are now perceived as the "original". I think "original" Superman for most people means it's Superman the way we tend to think of him (Clark Kent, Caucasian with black hair who works as a reporter and has a thing for Lois) and not a knockoff version like Sentry.

Also what I think sucks for DC in hindsight is they kinda trained their readers to not think of any comic version as the "original" with all the reboots. The 616 Marvel heroes will always be the original versions Stan Lee created in the 1960's even after they join the public domain, but DC by now had Earth One Superman, Earth Two Superman, New Earth Superman, New 52 Superman, and another "new" Superman again. Even with all the DC timelines being merged recently, it's hard to think of the current Superman as the one from Action Comics #1 compared to how easy it is to think of current Spider-Man as the one from Amazing Fantasy #15.

The other thing that I think helps publishers like Marvel and IDW is that Superman is arguably a character that started out very strong, but later lost some of that appeal due being turned into too Conservative of a figure in the Silver Age. Even with the Pro-Establishment Superman of that era being gone, too many writers write him still giving off those vibes because that's what they grew up with and what we're all used to. Which means if Marvel and IDW can only legally use content from Action Comics #1, that might actually be a blessing in disguise for them. It means they can potentially market their version as a return to the original concept of Superman before DC gets a chance to do the same.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

As far as Marvel and DC superheroes go, I don't know if fans have a version they perceive as the "original" the way that movie characters from films that were later remade are now perceived as the "original".

At this point it's gotten a bit like the "Ship of Theseus" (cue that scene from WandaVision), where what people think of as Superman is the rot of the wood in the ship, the ups and downs and the legacy of Superman more than a character dating from a particular point of origin.

Also what I think sucks for DC in hindsight is they kinda trained their readers to not think of any comic version as the "original" with all the reboots. The 616 Marvel heroes will always be the original versions Stan Lee created in the 1960's even after they join the public domain, but DC by now had Earth One Superman, Earth Two Superman, New Earth Superman, New 52 Superman, and another "new" Superman again. Even with all the DC timelines being merged recently, it's hard to think of the current Superman as the one from Action Comics #1 compared to how easy it is to think of current Spider-Man as the one from Amazing Fantasy #15.

Exactly, Marvel has always maintained a single continuity, 616 Marvel. Ocassionally they create separate AU -- 2099, Ultimate Marvel, Old Man Logan -- but that's always meant to be limited and disposable and eventually whatever it contributes gets drawn into the main continuity. Whereas DC would have made Ultimate their default continuity as they have done multiple times starting from the Silver Age, to Post-Crisis, to New 52. Heck Dan Didio was in the middle of plotting another shake-up, called 5G when he got fired. None of the DC mainstays -- Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman -- really exist in the versions they were originally introduced which given the PD encroachment might be a blessing for them since the current DC versions of these characters date to the 1980s and that won't fall to PD for a good while.

Which means if Marvel and IDW can only legally use content from Action Comics #1, that might actually be a blessing in disguise for them. It means they can potentially market their version as a return to the original concept of Superman before DC gets a chance to do the same.

It would certainly be something because now you could concieve and imagine a different way of how Superman could have evolved had he not become an Establishment hero and so on.

[Ascended]

At this point it's gotten a bit like the "Ship of Theseus" (cue that scene from WandaVision), where what people think of as Superman is the rot of the wood in the ship, the ups and downs and the legacy of Superman more than a character dating from a particular point of origin.

The legend and idea of Superman eclipsing and limiting the character of Superman is something that I bitch about a lot on here. It's hard to tell a story where the legend of Superman is the main character; dude is too perfect, too capable, too amazing, to be compelling. It gives you boring stories where he handily beats up the bad guy, wins the day, drops some empty, paternal wisdom, and flies off with Lois. But when you try to write the character, who is nuanced, multifaceted, flawed, and limited while still representing our best selves....when you do that, people bitch that it's not living up to the legend (which the character has never lived up to, nor tried to).

I hold no illusions about public domain somehow being able to save the character from his own reputation (nor do I really think it'll happen at all). But gods, do I ever wonder if a public domain accessed Superman, using only the foundational elements S&S created, published by someone who isn't DC....I wonder if that could, somehow, cut through all the dross and remind us of who Superman is, and not what he's supposed to mean. Could it get rid of the ridiculous quasi-religious expectations that have dragged on the character for decades? Could it get rid of the idea that Superman is, and must be, perfect (and therefore not interesting to watch or read about?). Could PD Superman bring back the glory and the daring and the new perspectives that made Clark a global icon in the first place? At least partially? Or would it just debut to a resounding "meh" from the world and hit cancellation by issue three?

It would certainly be something because now you could concieve and imagine a different way of how Superman could have evolved had he not become an Establishment hero and so on.

This is why I keep rounding back to this public domain idea every few years. I adore Superman, as anyone who knows me here can attest, but there's no denying that decades of mismanagement, and decades of corporate slant before that, have stripped the character of much of his passion, purpose, and drive. And it's easy to wonder if someone else couldn't do it better, learn from DC's choices (good and bad) over the years, and revitalize this IP and give it the chance to be truly competitive again and re-take it's position at the top of the charts.

I still maintain that, if nothing else, a Marvel Superman movie would be far better than DC's best efforts. And that alone might make the whole thing worthwhile.