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  1. #616
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime View Post
    Hmm you know i feel like Supeman or kypronians in general should age like viltrumites
    I'm good with that as long as their slow aging only applies in solar systems with a yellow sun. Outside of such systems, their aging would slowly speed up.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  2. #617
    Out Fighting for Peace! AJpyro's Avatar
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    I bought it and liked it.

    I didnt expect to like Manchester Black but his annoying spiels and Supes's interaction made it funny and interesting.
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  3. #618
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime View Post
    Hmm you know i feel like Supeman or kypronians in general should age like viltrumites
    They did it first so I think itís the other way around
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  4. #619
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    They did it first so I think it’s the other way around
    Yeah, Viltrumites are Kryptonians if they had Saiyan culture.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  5. #620
    Fantastic Member The Frog Bros's Avatar
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    I can't read this book and not imagine Black as Johnny Rotten as Morrison pointed out in that interview

    The banter and overall demeanor between the two is great. This is my first rodeo with Manchester Black though, so has Morrison magnified the son-of-a-bitch factor at all, or is this the standard representation? I mean, I know this is generally how he rolls, but just wondering if it's kicked up a notch at all here.
    "There is nothing quite so perfect as the exact way in which comics combine the word and image." --Alan Moore
    "Before it was a Bomb, the Bomb was an Idea. Superman, however, was a Faster, Stronger, Better Idea." --Grant Morrison

  6. #621
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Frog Bros View Post
    I can't read this book and not imagine Black as Johnny Rotten as Morrison pointed out in that interview

    The banter and overall demeanor between the two is great. This is my first rodeo with Manchester Black though, so has Morrison magnified the son-of-a-bitch factor at all, or is this the standard representation? I mean, I know this is generally how he rolls, but just wondering if it's kicked up a notch at all here.
    I feel it's reduced and a bit heroics.the character was a parody and meta commentary abot " the horrific state of comics" or whatever nonsense in his original outing.It wasn't even smart or entertaining..Morrison just gave a new spin and life.tomasi used him as a plain villain tempting clark and jon to kill
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  7. #622
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Frog Bros View Post
    I can't read this book and not imagine Black as Johnny Rotten as Morrison pointed out in that interview

    The banter and overall demeanor between the two is great. This is my first rodeo with Manchester Black though, so has Morrison magnified the son-of-a-bitch factor at all, or is this the standard representation? I mean, I know this is generally how he rolls, but just wondering if it's kicked up a notch at all here.
    I don't know that he really magnified it all that much. His first appearance in Action 775 is along these same lines. Not quite as funny, but within the ballpark. His appearance in Ending Battle was a little darker, but again along the same lines of criticism. His most recent appearance in Rebirth was more generic villainy mastermind - probably owing to his having supposed to have been Brainiac before editorial nixed it. I think the bigger difference is Superman's response to his banter more than Black.

  8. #623
    Fantastic Member The Frog Bros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I feel it's reduced and a bit heroics.the character was a parody and meta commentary abot " the horrific state of comics" or whatever nonsense in his original outing.It wasn't even smart or entertaining..Morrison just gave a new spin and life.tomasi used him as a plain villain tempting clark and jon to kill
    Ah good to know, thanks!

    Got some good laughs out of several things from Black... him thinking he's in Hell (facetiously or literally) as his punishment for his many, many sins ... imagining Supes imprisoned people in the Phantom Zone for littering or not paying space taxes... and yeah, that whole mineral water bit...

    Man, love the panels where Supes is just waiting for the Phantom Zone to break loose, knowing its gonna happen any second, hoping Black comes back.
    Last edited by The Frog Bros; 07-23-2021 at 08:30 AM.
    "There is nothing quite so perfect as the exact way in which comics combine the word and image." --Alan Moore
    "Before it was a Bomb, the Bomb was an Idea. Superman, however, was a Faster, Stronger, Better Idea." --Grant Morrison

  9. #624
    Fantastic Member The Frog Bros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I don't know that he really magnified it all that much. His first appearance in Action 775 is along these same lines. Not quite as funny, but within the ballpark. His appearance in Ending Battle was a little darker, but again along the same lines of criticism. His most recent appearance in Rebirth was more generic villainy mastermind - probably owing to his having supposed to have been Brainiac before editorial nixed it. I think the bigger difference is Superman's response to his banter more than Black.
    Cool. Yeah, their interactions are pretty great. Hope the ensuing issues don't lose any of the current dynamic. The mere existence of Supes ("mocking us all with your chiseled airbrushed perfection ) pissing him off to no end has limitless comedic potential.
    "There is nothing quite so perfect as the exact way in which comics combine the word and image." --Alan Moore
    "Before it was a Bomb, the Bomb was an Idea. Superman, however, was a Faster, Stronger, Better Idea." --Grant Morrison

  10. #625
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    ...So, is this set on a different Earth? Or does Morrison truly not care about current continuity or what other writers are doing?

    Honestly, I found this disappointing. The back and forth between Superman and Manchester Black just came off as forced and uninteresting, and made it evident that Morrison would rather reduce these characters to tropes than actually have them engage in an honest conversation.

  11. #626
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    ...So, is this set on a different Earth? Or does Morrison truly not care about current continuity or what other writers are doing?

    Honestly, I found this disappointing. The back and forth between Superman and Manchester Black just came off as forced and uninteresting, and made it evident that Morrison would rather reduce these characters to tropes than actually have them engage in an honest conversation.
    Honest conversation about what?about killing?about being an outlaw?about direct action and intervention?when has that ever happened in comics...even if it did.black and superman are set in their ways.On top of that you don't want things to be boring.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 07-23-2021 at 10:00 AM.
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  12. #627
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    ...So, is this set on a different Earth? Or does Morrison truly not care about current continuity or what other writers are doing?
    We still don't know the status in this regard. Its a common source of confusion and at this point probably intentional. And as far as caring about continuity, DC as a whole doesn't, or at the very least are laughably terrible at maintaining it, so preserving it is a ship long ago sailed anyway. That said, since I think the confusion of the status quo is intentional, there will probably be some reveals along the way that are intended to connect it to main continuity in some form, whether its an alternate version or genuinely intended to be main Superman. All we know is that it has affect to the main line, it will matter, but that can be interpreted more than one way as of this point.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-23-2021 at 10:44 AM.
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  13. #628
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Frog Bros View Post
    I can't read this book and not imagine Black as Johnny Rotten as Morrison pointed out in that interview

    The banter and overall demeanor between the two is great. This is my first rodeo with Manchester Black though, so has Morrison magnified the son-of-a-bitch factor at all, or is this the standard representation? I mean, I know this is generally how he rolls, but just wondering if it's kicked up a notch at all here.
    This is totally on brand Manchester Black. He’s always been this scumbag “punk” who hides behind a thin veneer of rebel attitude in order to justify lashing out in the most petty of ways. In the comics even moreso than the movie, which made him more of a sympathetic character. What’s changed is how Clark responds to him. This is a much more grizzled and world-weary Clark who is willing to engage with Black on an honest level of “maybe you had a point about my methods not being adequate to handle the world’s problems”. Prior to this he would’ve just beat Black to a pulp lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    ...So, is this set on a different Earth? Or does Morrison truly not care about current continuity or what other writers are doing?

    Honestly, I found this disappointing. The back and forth between Superman and Manchester Black just came off as forced and uninteresting, and made it evident that Morrison would rather reduce these characters to tropes than actually have them engage in an honest conversation.
    We don’t know but this was mainly written back in 2018 when 5G was a thing. Might be an alternate world or it might be the future or DC might just be embracing that continuity is a mess and saying “we’ll make it fit”.

    I don’t get how this isn’t an honest conversation:




    Clark is pretty damn blunt to the point of rudeness. He flat out tells Manchester that Manchester has nowhere else to go and nothing to live for if he tries to walk away. Clark admits he fell far short of his idealistic goals. And he flat out tells Manchester he hates Black’s guts, but he’s willing to put that behind him if they can work together.
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  14. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    This is totally on brand Manchester Black. He’s always been this scumbag “punk” who hides behind a thin veneer of rebel attitude in order to justify lashing out in the most petty of ways. In the comics even moreso than the movie, which made him more of a sympathetic character. What’s changed is how Clark responds to him. This is a much more grizzled and world-weary Clark who is willing to engage with Black on an honest level of “maybe you had a point about my methods not being adequate to handle the world’s problems”. Prior to this he would’ve just beat Black to a pulp lol.


    We don’t know but this was mainly written back in 2018 when 5G was a thing. Might be an alternate world or it might be the future or DC might just be embracing that continuity is a mess and saying “we’ll make it fit”.

    I don’t get how this isn’t an honest conversation:

    Clark is pretty damn blunt to the point of rudeness. He flat out tells Manchester that Manchester has nowhere else to go and nothing to live for if he tries to walk away. Clark admits he fell far short of his idealistic goals. And he flat out tells Manchester he hates Black’s guts, but he’s willing to put that behind him if they can work together.
    That's one of the reasons why it doesn't sound real. Do you know anyone who is so blunt and rude like that in real life? Most of us, even if we hate the person we're talking to, at least try to sound somewhat cordial because that is basic human behavior. And honestly, this is an issue that I find prevalent in a lot of Morrison's writing. Most of the dialogue is overly stilted or just unnecessarily blunt to the point where it doesn't feel like human beings are actually saying it. Therefore, a lot of the time with Morrison, it feels like I'm reading about two robots trying to mimic a conversation as opposed to two human beings actually having one.

    But that's not the real issue I'm talking about. What I find egregious is the way in which Morrison boils down Superman to a trope that fits the story as opposed to portraying him as a real person. And Morrison does the same with Black as a matter of fact.

    What context do we have for this sudden shift in Superman's personality? I think all of us who read Superman comics know Superman as a benevolent and humble person who truly doesn't believe that it's "his place" to steer humanity in the "right direction." As such, at least the MAIN universe's Superman isn't the type of person to go down this authoritarian and ruthless bent, where [SPOILER ALERT] he's seemingly okay with poisoning someone who he tricked into trusting him.

    Also, the conversation between Black and Superman just plays out as this very basic clash of ideals, with Black representing the anti-establishment, borderline anarchist side and Superman being the stand-in for "order and obedience" and seems to be willing to do "whatever it takes" to preserve that. However, again, I think most of us know that you can't boil Superman down to that basic trope because everything we've seen from his character would make us think that he isn't that.

    In fact, the very first time he met Manchester Black, it was Black who was espousing the ideals of doing everything possible to maintain order, including killing supervillains, something that Superman was decidedly against. And even then, Superman is a multi-faceted person with complex motivations. He's not a caricature, which is what Morrison makes him into here. Here, Morrison boils Superman down to a base trope to fit the type of story they want to tell and explore a theme they think needs to be explored, even if it's a decidedly stark departure from everything we've seen of Superman's character development.

    In other words, it seems that Morrison looks at Superman as a collection of ideals, rather than as an actual human person.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 07-23-2021 at 11:50 AM.

  15. #630
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    That's one of the reasons why it doesn't sound real. Do you know anyone who is so blunt and rude like that in real life? Most of us, even if we hate the person we're talking to, at least try to sound somewhat cordial because that is basic human behavior. And honestly, this is an issue that I find prevalent in a lot of Morrison's writing. Most of the dialogue is overly stilted or just unnecessarily blunt to the point where it doesn't feel like human beings are actually saying it. Therefore, a lot of the time with Morrison, it feels like I'm reading about two robots trying to mimic a conversation as opposed to two human beings actually having one.
    Morrison has never cared about “realism”, and you’re ignoring a lot of the context of why Clark is like this. He’s old and tired, weaker than he’s ever been, scared that his legacy will be one of failure. He’s blunt and direct because he doesn’t care about social niceties anymore, he’s also speaking to Manchester Black who doesn’t respect those either. He’s trying to get through to Manchester here and being direct as possible to try to crack Black’s cynical exterior.
    But that's not the real issue I'm talking about. What I find egregious is the way in which Morrison boils down Superman to a trope that fits the story as opposed to portraying him as a real person. And Morrison does the same with Black as a matter of fact.

    What context do we have for this sudden shift in Superman's personality? I think all of us who read Superman comics know Superman as a benevolent and humble person who truly doesn't believe that it's "his place" to steer humanity in the "right direction." As such, at least the MAIN universe's Superman isn't the type of person to go down this authoritarian and ruthless bent, where [SPOILER ALERT] he's seemingly okay with poisoning someone who he tricked into trusting him.
    He didn’t poison him it’s just water lol:


    He’s just a freaking drama queen throwing up because he’s mad Supes didn’t give him alcohol haha.
    Also, the conversation between Black and Superman just plays out as this very basic clash of ideals, with Black representing the anti-establishment, borderline anarchist side and Superman being the stand-in for "order and obedience" and seems to be willing to do "whatever it takes" to preserve that. However, again, I think most of us know that you can't boil Superman down to that basic trope because everything we've seen from his character would make us think that he isn't that.
    Indeed Black is a shallow person. That was exactly how he was characterized under Kelly and under Tomasi. For all his “punk” attitude, all he can think to do is murder people rather than tackle issues on a deeper more systemic level. In that regard Morrison is writing him in-character. And Supes was the “order and obedience” guy in the “What’s So Funny About Truth, Justice, And American Way?” story, but I don’t see him as that here. He’s the “status quo” guy, the Action Comics social crusader who mellowed out and focused on supervillains, confident that humanity could solve their problems on their own, which is how Morrison wrote him in JLA. His shift in characterization is caused by him looking around and going “damn humanity really hasn’t gotten their **** together the way I hoped”. So now he’s asking himself how can he make a difference in a different way. A similar story I think would be looking at what Hickman did with the X-Men. After getting genocided so many times, they’ve finally decided to shake things up and stand up for themselves.
    In fact, the very first time he met Manchester Black, it was Black who was espousing the ideals of doing everything possible to maintain order, including killing supervillains, something that Superman was decidedly against. And even then, Superman is a multi-faceted person with complex motivations. He's not a caricature, which is what Morrison makes him into here. Here, Morrison boils Superman down to a base trope to fit the type of story they want to tell and explore a theme they think needs to be explored, even if it's a decidedly stark departure from everything we've seen of Superman's character development.
    Black as a faux punk feels very much still present here. And Supes says that he’s not going to let Black run wild, which I’m taking to mean he’s still not going to let Black kill people. We’ll see though. I don’t see Clark as a caricature though, he’s feel caricature-esque if he recited the Pledge of Allegiance and told Black he needed to let Hope into his heart, which caused Black to fall to his feet in tears and say he’s always really wanted to be Superman’s son. And then everyone clapped as they went out to go beat down protestors in front of the WH or something that would be caricature to me. But here Clark is grizzled, old, and world-weary, but he’s not giving up just yet. He hasn’t decided to go full Justice Lord or Injustice which would be the REAL cliche at this point. Personally I feel like the dichotomy DC has usually given us, that Clark can either be a passive observer or a full blown fascist, is in itself dishonest and caricature-ish. This seems to be going for a third route.

    This is a fun discussion, just so you know GG, I’m not pressed you didn’t like this story, I just loved the first issue and am eager to talk about it. This is much more entertaining than the usual arguments we get around here. Sorry Moz isn’t doing it for ya, but I think this set up a very engaging and entertaining story to come.
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