Superman and the Authority

[Ascended]

As far as D list characters go? They possibly could've seen a new bump in status via being put in a new context, or you'd catch them in their prime in a Gen 2 mini (as if you see them all that much now to begin with).

I was thinking that myself. More that a combination of "new generation" context and appearances in their classic primes would provide the kind of dynamism and fluidity, as well as some unintentional world building, that some C- and D-listers could benefit from.

Even among the B-, C-, and D-list, DC has characters they tend to gravitate to and use. And even though a big chunk of the line would be taken up with the major franchises, it's safe to assume there'd be a lot of team titles and mini's so DC could cover as much ground as possible across the generations. And to show off the world building and development of the DCU across the decades (and to maintain consistency), you gotta touch base with characters as they age.

We likely could have seen, let's say Black Lightning, in his prime in a gen 2 Outsiders book; young, married, with a baby daughter at home. But it's not terribly unlikely that he'd also show up in a gen 4 book as well; older, divorced, with two superhero daughters. Maybe his kids replace him in a gen 4 Outsiders title or something, or who knows what, but either way you'd be looking at the spread of the man's life, his journey and the changes he went through. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that some fans who never cared for him before would see that evolution and be intrigued. And if two writers are building the Lightning mythos from two different ends, well they gotta communicate so the continuity stays straight even if one of them is writing the kids, which means some things get shared and utilized by both, and suddenly the mythos is growing.

Instead of the C-list being pushed even further into the margins, DC might have, quite by accident, actually given them the kind of growth and development they need. DC might have woken up one morning to realize that they had unintentionally built a fantastic and interesting framework around characters they had thought relegated to team ensembles and guest appearances.

Who knows if it would have worked out that way, of course. And even if this had happened with some characters, it wouldn't have happened with all of them and the guys like Vibe, that DC always ignores and marginalizes, they'd still be screwed over.....but DC's favorite secondary heroes......it might have (again, accidentally) worked out pretty well for them. Possibly.

[HsssH]

When it comes to D-listers I think that everyone who is screwed now would have been screwed in 5G as well.

It is getting better this days, not to Superman related content, but it seems they are making some different choices.

But really, my doubt is this: DC doesn't ask or aprove Superman pitchs, or they don't receive it? Because I dread to think that all the pitchs they got for Superman was the DKR spin-off and the book about Lobo banging Superman's mom, that would be really sad.

I think that recent red/blue anthology hints at there not being that many good Superman pitches for DC to choose from.

[Frontier]

Maybe I'm too "simple" a fan to really see the appeal of 5G. I just don't really see the need for the main comic line to become some kind of YJ hugely segmented generation publishing line. Ambitious from a conceptual standpoint and world-building, and probably better able to execute in terms of comics rather than in one cartoon show, but is it necessary?

Like, okay, Wonder Woman was in WWII and lead the JSA. Kind of interesting but I think her fans care more about her actual published stories in the present-day and DC actually treating her world and characters well than they do Diana being in WWII or being stuck with the JSA. I don't think they would've been happy with her having disparate focus in different Gen books while Yara gets the solo, if that had been what happened. Comparatively now we're getting her solo stable, Nubia's got her own book exploring the Amazons, and a big Amazon event spotlighting the entire mythos. And Yara's in there somewhere.

And a lot of it would probably depend on what DC was willing to shell out for books. They've scaled their line back quite a bit so I'm not sure how many Multi-Generation books would've come out aside from those established books that might've been reoriented into like a Gen 2 book or something ('Tec? Action?). And we see how DC will find any excuse to publish more Bat-Books over anything else. I'm not sure if that would change.

I don't feel invested enough in the 5G characters/legacies to really feel like they deserved to reorient the whole universe to their benefit.

[Superlad93]

And a lot of it would probably depend on what DC was willing to shell out for books. They've scaled their line back quite a bit so I'm not sure how many Multi-Generation books would've come out aside from those established books that might've been reoriented into like a Gen 2 book or something ('Tec? Action?). And we see how DC will find any excuse to publish more Bat-Books over anything else. I'm not sure if that would change.

I don't agree with anyone who assumes that outside of the JSA and Diana getting an ongoing gen 1 book that anyone else would've gotten an ongoing of any kind in any other generation. That's neither supported by anything said/seen/implied, or by what we know of the publishing strategy.

I think it's FAR more likely that we'd have gotten in continuity BL minis that would've explored exclusively gen 2 (aka the era where Clark and Bruce are just starting out as Superman and Batman). THAT and Gen 1 are the eras that DiDio himself said "I don't remember getting all the stories from this era...hmmm". There's no need for a "gen 4" book because if you look at the timeline...well...that was Rebirth. You've read Gen 4 already. The same goes for gen 3 in a sense. They weren't trying to go back over those. The most I'd expect out of those would've been flashbacks in present day aka gen 5 books.

The main idea was gen 5. For ease of understanding and if we're just breaking it down to what it clearly was...it was basically a line wide reboot in terms of functionality. We'd have followed it much the same way we followed the New 52, and that's due to the need for it to be for new readers just as much as it was for long time fans.

You'd have-- when put simply-- a more planned out the New 52 with prestige Strange Adventures Black Label books cycling in and out. You be attacking the book store/coffee table market while interesting new fans on the prospect of getting in on the ground floor of YOUR Superman, YOUR Batman, YOUR Wonder Woman, and YOUR Justice League (or whatever they'd call it. This after all would've been a similar leap from JSA to JLA, so a new name would've made sense).

I think people just like to overcomplicate and get really dramatic about something that wouldn't have been all that hard to grasp for anyone when actually put into practice. And on top of that, because the main focus is gen 5 and the present day books, our new readers likely wouldn't have been all that confused about any timeline. All they'd care about are the heroes and setting of the future. And if they're interested enough, or want something a bit more like how grandma used to make, then they'd have new stories about the OGs in gen 2, and said stories would be of bookstore high quality.

Wonder Comics was likely the test run for it. We'd likely have seen stuff like a gen 2 Superman "season 1" and "season 2" and so on when the creators were ready.

[Ra-El]

When it comes to D-listers I think that everyone who is screwed now would have been screwed in 5G as well.



I think that recent red/blue anthology hints at there not being that many good Superman pitches for DC to choose from.

You're right, that red/blue anthology was basically the same 3 or 4 stories repeated every issue: Superman remembering some lesson he learned from his parents, Superman inspiring someone he saved, some normal human inspiring Superman or some combination of those.
It made me really fearful for the prospects of the character if this is all DC could find in terms of story ideas.

[Frontier]

I don't agree with anyone who assumes that outside of the JSA and Diana getting an ongoing gen 1 book that anyone else would've gotten an ongoing of any kind in any other generation. That's neither supported by anything said/seen/implied, or by what we know of the publishing strategy.

I think it's FAR more likely that we'd have gotten in continuity BL minis that would've explored exclusively gen 2 (aka the era where Clark and Bruce are just starting out as Superman and Batman). THAT and Gen 1 are the eras that DiDio himself said "I don't remember getting all the stories from this era...hmmm". There's no need for a "gen 4" book because if you look at the timeline...well...that was Rebirth. You've read Gen 4 already. The same goes for gen 3 in a sense. They weren't trying to go back over those. The most I'd expect out of those would've been flashbacks in present day aka gen 5 books.

The main idea was gen 5. For ease of understanding and if we're just breaking it down to what it clearly was...it was basically a line wide reboot in terms of functionality. We'd have followed it much the same way we followed the New 52, and that's due to the need for it to be for new readers just as much as it was for long time fans.

You'd have-- when put simply-- a more planned out the New 52 with prestige Strange Adventures Black Label books cycling in and out. You be attacking the book store/coffee table market while interesting new fans on the prospect of getting in on the ground floor of YOUR Superman, YOUR Batman, YOUR Wonder Woman, and YOUR Justice League (or whatever they'd call it. This after all would've been a similar leap from JSA to JLA, so a new name would've made sense).

I think people just like to overcomplicate and get really dramatic about something that wouldn't have been all that hard to grasp for anyone when actually put into practice. And on top of that, because the main focus is gen 5 and the present day books, our new readers likely wouldn't have been all that confused about any timeline. All they'd care about are the heroes and setting of the future. And if they're interested enough, or want something a bit more like how grandma used to make, then they'd have new stories about the OGs in gen 2, and said stories would be of bookstore high quality.

Wonder Comics was likely the test run for it. We'd likely have seen stuff like a gen 2 Superman "season 1" and "season 2" and so on when the creators were ready.

I think reorienting everything around Gen 5 and those characters would've been an even bigger dealbreaker for some people, especially if you got to a point where you could only expect your favorite character or a character you've followed for years to only get content in (potentially) just a team book or the occasional mini while a new character suddenly gets their title and solo book. Assuming they would even get that much seeing how Batman-geared Black Label has tended to be. Or maybe they'd get "lucky" and get a Tom King deconstruction mini.

I mean, if they were hardcore thinking about trying to gain new readers with new versions of their established heroes...but I would've rather they spent that time trying to get new readers interested in their already established stable and their -verse without putting most of that to pasture for the sake of 5G. I just haven't been convinced that it would've been worth shifting towards these characters versus what we have now.

[Ascended]

I think reorienting everything around Gen 5 and those characters would've been an even bigger dealbreaker for some people

It definitely would have been. People had a hard enough time with a young Clark Kent in the New52, and I don't see the direct market being more welcoming to Jon taking over the mantle and all the books.

Which is why I've said the whole thing likely could have found success in the OGN market where that kind of predisposition is less of a problem.

Back when this was actually a thing, I didn't pay much attention to the rumors; I don't know what direction they appeared to be going in, but I still maintain that the basic concept might have worked, with the right approach. But the right approach doesn't include shoving all the big names into a Black Label corner.

If there had been regular books set in the classic status quo's, which I guess was gen 2 (?), it might have worked. It's not even terribly different from what we have right now, in some ways. But the more you push Bruce and Clark and Diana out of the spotlight, the more angry your fans will become and the less likely they are to follow the new guys out of spite. And the LCS isn't gonna see a lot of new customers come in so they can follow Yara, Jon, and Jace.

Like I said, bookstore OGN's. That was the way to go.

[Frontier]

It definitely would have been. People had a hard enough time with a young Clark Kent in the New52, and I don't see the direct market being more welcoming to Jon taking over the mantle and all the books.

Which is why I've said the whole thing likely could have found success in the OGN market where that kind of predisposition is less of a problem.

Back when this was actually a thing, I didn't pay much attention to the rumors; I don't know what direction they appeared to be going in, but I still maintain that the basic concept might have worked, with the right approach. But the right approach doesn't include shoving all the big names into a Black Label corner.

If there had been regular books set in the classic status quo's, which I guess was gen 2 (?), it might have worked. It's not even terribly different from what we have right now, in some ways. But the more you push Bruce and Clark and Diana out of the spotlight, the more angry your fans will become and the less likely they are to follow the new guys out of spite. And the LCS isn't gonna see a lot of new customers come in so they can follow Yara, Jon, and Jace.

Like I said, bookstore OGN's. That was the way to go.

Honestly from what I read of Future State I think it could have worked better as an alternative elseworld line of comics basically re-imagining the main DCU heroes (black Batman, young and hip Brazilian Wonder Woman, a new young Superman) rather than wholesale replacing the main versions and their ongoing narrative/communities.

Maybe doing away with the "competition" of the main versions would have helped them initially, but it would've left a lot of ill will. I guess now they're doing a similar kind of transition with "Death of the Justice League," but just like with Superman I think we can all assume it'll be temporary.

[Vordan]

The new blood would’ve gotten an initial big rush of attention and sales followed by a slow petering out of both over time. To really succeed you would need to start seeing 5G stories get adapted outside of comics ASAP because the audience for these new diverse characters just wasn’t going to show up to support the majority of these books in the monthly market. Trades or OGNs May have sold better but even now it’s rare to see a character survive off of trade sales when the monthlies sell poorly.

You're right, that red/blue anthology was basically the same 3 or 4 stories repeated every issue: Superman remembering some lesson he learned from his parents, Superman inspiring someone he saved, some normal human inspiring Superman or some combination of those.
It made me really fearful for the prospects of the character if this is all DC could find in terms of story ideas.

Mark Waid has a BL book coming that’s a continuation of his Birthright Superman. Tom King has hinted he’s got a Superman project coming, and given he’s almost exclusively BL now that might mean we’re getting a BL Superman book from him. There have been some great pitches that never saw the light of day, Gabriel Hardman had a post apocalyptic Superman pitch featuring Brainiac that DC passed on. There are creators with interesting takes out there, it’s on the editors to find them.

[HsssH]

That doesn't really say much. For all we know Hardman's pitch was about Superman walking thru apocalyptic world and remembering good old days and lessons that he learned from his parents. Maybe he even beats Brainiac by telling a story how some random kid inspired him to be Superman.

[titansupes]

That doesn't really say much. For all we know Hardman's pitch was about Superman walking thru apocalyptic world and remembering good old days and lessons that he learned from his parents. Maybe he even beats Brainiac by telling a story how some random kid inspired him to be Superman.

Maaaaan the sooner we can do away with those stories the better.

[Vordan]

That doesn't really say much. For all we know Hardman's pitch was about Superman walking thru apocalyptic world and remembering good old days and lessons that he learned from his parents. Maybe he even beats Brainiac by telling a story how some random kid inspired him to be Superman.

Hah, well he described it as “hard scifi” so I don’t think appealing to Brainiac’s emotions would’ve been the story.

[Ascended]

Trades or OGNs May have sold better but even now it’s rare to see a character survive off of trade sales when the monthlies sell poorly.

Collected floppies don't tend to keep books monthly books afloat, no, though it does happen on rare occasion (like with Moon Girl). What I was suggesting though, was not "Son of Kal-El, collecting issues 1-6" but "Beast Boy Loves Raven;" stand alone content that doesn't start at the LCS. Those books have shown to be extremely strong and successful, using characters that can't survive in the direct market at all. Aqualad has already done decently in that format, as have some Titans and Harley, and it seems to me that 5G could have worked really well like that too. If Kaldur can do it, then the Future State kids should be able to as well.

DC wants to attract new, younger fans, and they're right to do so. But every plan they come up with to do that has one fatal flaw; it relies on the LCS direct market model. And it's not gonna fly. The last time it sort of worked was the 90's boom, and that imploded within a few years and nearly brought Marvel to bankruptcy. If you want to get those new readers that DC is so desperate to bring in, you gotta go where they are, and they're not at the LCS.

[Superlad93]

It definitely would have been. People had a hard enough time with a young Clark Kent in the New52, and I don't see the direct market being more welcoming to Jon taking over the mantle and all the books.

Fuck em. Make it a big ass rollout, shell out the money required to get top talent, and make it a big cohesive story between the books that encourages you try them all but doesn't need you to. As we found out, apparently DC was inspired by the House of X model before it even came out, so bite off that hard. Then ride the wave of the buzz, speculation, and new and old fans. After that weather the storm of turned off old fans while you make sure everyone knows this is for real. In the meantime have the prestige gen 1 and 2 minis pacifying them. Then finally, look as if you're "giving an inch" by putting out ongoing gen 2 books on Clark, Bruce, Diana, and the JLA, and stick Jurgens, Tomasi, and Waid over there (it's effectively how Silver age Superman and Superboy worked). Then add in a few time travel crossovers to effectively "pitch" the new kids to the arms folded older fans who are now. reading these books.

From there it's all about vision and keeping up quality with the new kids. And also being willing to throw out some gen 5 minis here and there. I particularly liked the idea of "seasons" in Wonder Comics, and also how the Leviathan epic would come in "chapters". Keep that up. Give readers non summer event hubs to touch base and see what the world looks like and how the other characters they aren't reading have progressed since the rollout. Like a report card.

But the smartest thing 5G and DiDio had that they should've totally kept up is the intrigue and new context. Never back down and go "well, maybe we need a more traditional Clark and Kara in gen 5". No. Take that shit to gen 2. That context and progression is what would've made the DCU both feel cohesive and alive. It would've taken the characters from being the cutouts to people who make actual choices and have opinions that aren't always what we expect because there's a toy made out of them.

Which is why I've said the whole thing likely could have found success in the OGN market where that kind of predisposition is less of a problem.

I disagree. The nature of an OGN is something self contained and all its own. While the idea of simply following a totally new Superman with a setting that goes beyond his father's is accessible by nature, it's also something that's implicitly dependent the understanding that the DCU is old and this is the next stage. It's built on the idea of an extensive main continuity.

It would be redundant to have a "here are the books where everything basically happened" next to "here are the books where everything basically happened...but we refuse to make it make a lick of sense timeline wise". An "Ultimate" universe that's basically the main universe but it makes sense is redundant.

An "Ultimate" DC would be a young Clark, Bruce, and Diana. A universe where it's starting from square one.

___________

Speaking personally, I'd move away from the direct market in general. It's a suffocating void of lowest common denominator vomit eating and gatekeeping.

[Vordan]

Part 4 of Morrison’s annotations are out!