Superman and the Authority

[Vordan]

A lot of the Authority is postmodernism borne from cynicism and yet Superman, I would argue classically, doesn't have a cynical bone in his body.

No, he doesn't! But when you go back to that very first Action Comics, Superman is the defender of the downtrodden and champion of the oppressed. I think the Authority took that to a different level and tried to engage that with real-world politics or at least metaphors that suggested real-world politics. So suddenly, to get Superman to that point in his life, it honestly was like me. I was about 28 when I wrote my first Superman scene in Animal Man and now I'm 61. It becomes a very interesting prospect to see an older Superman and how he would recalibrate his mission and make it work in a different way but still live up to the promise of that, the champion of the oppressed and savior of the downtrodden.

You've got Manchester Black prominently here. What made him the perfect foil for Superman as the Man of Steel enters his grizzled years?

It's kind of a reflective age for Superman who looks back and wondered if it worked, all that gaudy presentation, fighting with Doomsday, having Crises? Were we all wrapped up in our superhero bullshit and not dealing with all the problems that we started out with and tried to [solve]? And then you have Manchester Black and his first appearance in that celebrated story by Joe Kelly and Doug Mahnke, "Whatever Happened to Truth, Justice and the American Way?" Manchester Black is an absolute punk opposite, he's the Johnny Rotten to Superman's Elvis. I kind [of] brought that dynamic back, with Manchester Black as the questioning, angry voice of the cynic saying, "You know why that didn't work? You talk a good game but you don't follow through!"

These two parts in particular had me thinking about Johnson’s plans for the Authority after Morrison. Is Mongul only the beginning I wonder? Once you topple that tyrant from his throne, what happens next? I also think that perhaps the reason Clark ended up imprisoned on Warworld in Future State was that he went in alone rather than going in with a team as he’s doing this time seemingly.

[manwhohaseverything]

This is as far from complex as you can get.

I didn't say the character is complex.i said the portrayals of superman seems to suggest deep-rooted complexes.People think superman is sane and batman is nut-job.On the contrary,bruce's problems are just plain and visible.Clark's problems are not.

[Myskin]

. @Myskin Nor is everything that he's been in been only terrible or mediocre. Superman and Lois has been one of the best reviewed shows DC has ever put out and even the films have their fans despite how divisive they are.

Look, if Superman and Lois or even Cavill Superman are good/imaginative versions of the character we are definitely not on the same page here.
And we haven't seen anything from My Adventures with Superman, so we can't say anything about it.

[Agent Z]

Look, if Superman and Lois or even Cavill Superman are good/acceptable versions of the character we are definitely not on the same page here.
And we haven't seen anything from My Adventures with Superman, so we can't say anything about it.

It seems to me you aren't on the same page as, well, anyone else, judging by how your opinion is very much a minority one. At least in regards to Superman & Lois.

No, we haven't seen anything from My Adventures With Superman either. Which is why I didn't mention it when I listed animation. (And a lot of the backlash to it is coming from people whose opinions one should be very weary of).

It seems more like your issue is you haven't been personally satisfied with anything Superman related since All-Star rather than any issue regarding objective quality with recent Superman media. I guess all I can say is that I hope you get a Superman work that satisfies you in future.

[Agent Z]

I didn't say the character is complex.i said the portrayals of superman seems to suggest deep-rooted complexes.People think superman is sane and batman is nut-job.On the contrary,bruce's problems are just plain and visible.Clark's problems are not.

Turning into a tyrant out of anger is not the same thing as suggesting "deep-rooted complexes". Nor does it have anything to with how people handle personal problems. By your logic, their should be way more stories about Batman turning into a tyrant than Superman.

[manwhohaseverything]

Turning into a tyrant out of anger is not the same thing as suggesting "deep-rooted complexes". Nor does it have anything to with how people handle personal problems. By your logic, their should be way more stories about Batman turning into a tyrant than Superman.

It is actually.Being angry is one thing,everyone does.The connotations of the anger is what you count to suggest complex.He treats the entire metropolis as his children.Is that normal?it ain't.his motive is to save people from themselves.tell me ,that doesn't suggest any complex .Read what's so funny..Superman is the dad and black is the naughty child.It is the limited domain.You can extend that domain to metropolis or whatever.He would be the authoritarian.

bruce Is already tyrant in his limited domain(his kids would certainly say so).He is a control freak.Once,he loses that control.That's what writers tend to focus on.

[Myskin]

It seems more like your issue is you haven't been personally satisfied with anything Superman related since All-Star rather than any issue regarding objective quality with recent Superman media.

Let's put it this way. Once you exit the fandom - and that ship for me sailed years ago - it becomes way easier than before to find really memorable, non-Superman related stuff, because you don't feel the pressure to watch/read everything related to the character and to be nitpicky about what works and what doesn't. You just enjoy what is really good (and All-Star Superman is still the best stuff happened to Superman in the latest decades, no contest about that) and you are free to just abandon a series after a couple of episodes if you don't find it particularly enjoyable. Ultimately, the world DOESN'T need Superman. Even if obviously there can be space for Superman stuff which is really imaginative and important, if they will ever release it.
The entire, 8-year long, interminable discussion about MOS, whether Superman should or shouldn't kill in that movie, whether Cavill is better than Reeve et cetera, exists only in the fandom bubble. In the real world, people just saw the movie, said "meh" and moved on. Even the entire releasethesnydercut stuff is just the product of an extremely vocal, but ultimately overblown minority with too much time (and money) on their hand.
I am quite sure that stuff such as Villeneuve's Dune (and maybe Reeves' The Batman) have a potential to influence the global imaginary (provided this concept exists) in an immensely stronger way than any recent Superman-related stuff, including Superman and Lois. And of course, maybe, maybe, a Superman-penned Ta-Nehisi Coates if it becomes a reality, which I really doubt it will ever happen. Mostly because he is one of the most acute observers of American society and politics, even if apparently the fandom knows him just as the writer of Black Panther and Captain America.
But OK, I am writing this on a fandom forum so I am not really expecting anyone to really be on my same page. I am fine with that.

[Agent Z]

Let's put it this way. Once you exit the fandom - and that ship for me sailed years ago - it becomes way easier than before to find really memorable, non-Superman related stuff, because you don't feel the pressure to watch/read everything related to the character and to be nitpicky about what works and what doesn't. You just enjoy what is really good (and All-Star Superman is still the best stuff happened to Superman in the latest decades, no contest about that) and you are free to just abandon a series after a couple of episodes if you don't find it particularly enjoyable. Ultimately, the world DOESN'T need Superman. Even if obviously there can be space for Superman stuff which is really imaginative and important, if they will ever release it.
The entire, 8-year long, interminable discussion about MOS, whether Superman should or shouldn't kill in that movie, whether Cavill is better than Reeve et cetera, exists only in the fandom bubble. In the real world, people just saw the movie, said "meh" and moved on. Even the entire releasethesnydercut stuff is just the product of an extremely vocal, but ultimately overblown minority with too much time (and money) on their hand.
I am quite sure that stuff such as Villeneuve's Dune (and maybe Reeves' The Batman) have a potential to influence the global imaginary (provided this concept exists) in an immensely stronger way than any recent Superman-related stuff, including Superman and Lois. And of course, maybe, maybe, a Superman-penned Ta-Nehisi Coates if it becomes a reality, which I really doubt it will ever happen. Mostly because he is one of the most acute observers of American society and politics, even if apparently the fandom knows him just as the writer of Black Panther and Captain America.
But OK, I am writing this on a fandom forum so I am not really expecting anyone to really be on my same page. I am fine with that.

Just to be clear, Superman and Lois isn't just liked hy comic fans.

I'm not sure it is guaranteed that Reeves's Batman will capture this global imaginary either. Really, only a minority of people would even care if it did or didn't. Even the Nolan Trilogy was only really famous for The Dark Knight, part of which was due to the death of Heath Ledger. I'm sure it will be a good movie though and that should be enough. You're right that we don't need Superman but we don't "need" Batman, Dune or any form of fiction either if we're being honest. But if you're going into a story expecting it to be some grand ideologically charged masterpiece that forever changes the way society as a whole thinks, yeah, you're going to be disappointed at least 90% of the time. That doesn't inherently mean it's terrible or mediocre.

I guess as fans we are all a little guilty of thinking that what we like is or should be as important to everyone else.

[Myskin]

You're right that we don't need Superman but we don't "need" Batman, Dune or any form of fiction either if we're being honest.

Obviously. It's so obvious that there is no need to specify that.
But let's say that if we take into account the latest, I don't know, 30 years, the list of stuff which really influenced the public imaginary (that is, stuff which is "ideologically charged" as you said, or gave a contribution to the critical debate, or just consisted of works of clever entertainment which the vast majority of people - that is non-fans - discussed about, or felt really invested in, or just stuff which struck a chord with the audience), well, that list would conspicuously lacking in Superman-related works. But it would be relatively easy to find Batman stuff or Avengers stuff (just to restrict ourselves to the superhero field).

I guess as fans we are all a little guilty of thinking that what we like is or should be as important to everyone else.

As an ex fan, I agree.

[Agent Z]

Obviously. It's so obvious that there is no need to specify that.
But let's say that if we take into account the latest, I don't know, 30 years, the list of stuff which really influenced the public imaginary (that is, stuff which is "ideologically charged" as you said, or gave a contribution to the critical debate, or just consisted of works of clever entertainment which the vast majority of people - that is non-fans - discussed about, or felt really invested in, or just stuff which struck a chord with the audience), well, that list would conspicuously lacking in Superman-related works. But it would be relatively easy to find Batman stuff or Avengers stuff (just to restrict ourselves to the superhero field).


As an ex fan, I agree.

I'm pretty sure I'd find more ideologically charged Superman works than Avengers. Hell, considering the Avengers didn't really hit it big until the 2012 film, I'd say way more people would find more Superman stuff that struck a chord with audiences, even if it is just older movies and shows.

But agree to disagree.

[Myskin]

I'm pretty sure I'd find more ideologically charged Superman works than Avengers. Hell, considering the Avengers didn't really hit it big until the 2012 film, I'd say way more people would find more Superman stuff that struck a chord with audiences, even if it is just older movies and shows.

Re-read my comment above - I don't think that the list of stuff "which counts" only includes "ideologically charged" stuff (I mean, All-Star Superman is not particularly political either). I don't think that the Avengers (a series I am not 100% a fan of even if I enjoy it from time to time) are ideologically charged (well, not in a direct way), but the point is that the overwhelming, incredible and enduring success of that franchise proves without any reasonable doubt that they resonate incredibly well with the audience, they struck a chord more strongly than anything - and I mean anything - Superman-related in the latest 30 years. It's not just about "ALL the heroes in ONE movie" anymore (which - I guess - is more or less the reasoning behind Snyder's JL). They clearly hit a chord with the audience.
I have my own ideas about the reasons why it worked so well and they are a bit too long to explain here - I think that they "intercepted" in an extremely skillful way some specific elements of the American imaginary at the beginning of the XXI century, for example the idea of tycoon/scientist à la Elon Musk, and ideologically speaking I think that they are more conservative than they may appear at first sight, but let's not digress here. They point is that to find anything equally strong Superman-related you have to go back to 1978 Superman, and I guess that it is not a case that he still considered THE model for most Superman-related stuff even today. And I don't particularly like Donner Superman either, even if its original influence is undeniable. Maybe the Death of Superman came relatively close to that, just in a different medium.

P.S. Now that I think about it, the only "ideological" work related to Superman in recent times is Smashes the Klan. But I seriously think that its importance was way overblown here in the forums for obvious fandom reasons, even if it is an enjoyable work.

[Vordan]

I used to be a huge Star Wars fan. I watched all six movies and loved them all. I obsessively read random Wookieepedia entries. I read every Star Wars book and comic I could get my hands on and I played every Star Wars game I could. When the Disney buyout and reboot was announced, I was disappointed that all the continuity I had been following was wiped out but I was kind of excited. I walked in to TFA excited and left disappointed. It was a boring rehash of the OT in my eyes and I hated what they had done with their new canon. My SW fandom died and since then I have not interacted with any SW content since, aside from playing Fallen Order with my littlest sister who is as huge a SW fan now as I was at her age.

I don’t read SW books or comics or follow SW at all. I haven’t seen TLJ or RoS and I don’t have any interest in doing so. I’m an ex-fan in that I do not care about what Star Wars does any longer, but also don’t mind other people like my sister loving the ST and taking my place. I had my time with Star Wars and I’ve moved on.

I don’t get that feeling from you Myskin. If you’re still popping in on this forum you aren’t as carefree as you paint yourself to be, especially since you’re clearly still yearning for some arbitrary metric of mainstream acclaim and recognition for Superman. Sucks that you don’t enjoy anything currently Superman wise, frankly I think this has been an amazing year so far for him and there’s plenty of content coming for Supes that looks great, but I have to laugh at you pinning your hopes on Coates magically taking the world by storm despite his failures as a fiction writer and WB’s failures handling the Superman IP on the film side. If you’re still invested in the idea of a Superman film being a success, well, that’s not really how an “Ex-fan” behaves.

[Myskin]

I don’t get that feeling from you Myskin. If you’re still popping in on this forum you aren’t as carefree as you paint yourself to be, especially since you’re clearly still yearning for some arbitrary metric of mainstream acclaim and recognition for Superman. Sucks that you don’t enjoy anything currently Superman wise, frankly I think this has been an amazing year so far for him and there’s plenty of content coming for Supes that looks great, but I have to laugh at you pinning your hopes on Coates magically taking the world by storm despite his failures as a fiction writer and WB’s failures handling the Superman IP on the film side. If you’re still invested in the idea of a Superman film being a success, well, that’s not really how an “Ex-fan” behaves.

Man, my latest posts on this forum date back to March/April and I don't even remember the ones before that, does this qualify me as a "fan"? Am I supposed to be on trial because I said that I am not as interested in Superman as I was 20 years ago?
Jokes aside, I still come here because I have a couple of friends on the forum and I like to keep in touch with them by PMs. That and the fact that I still enjoy the corporate drama. And... That's it, I guess.
I'll give you that - I have a good opinion of PKJ as a writer (mostly for The Last God) and I am interested in Superman/Authority because - obviously - I have a high consideration of Morrison. Having said that, I have read a couple of issues from PKJ's Superman run and OK, it is fine and probably better than Bendis at his worst (I didn't read every single Bendis issue though), even if I don't think that it will ultimately leave an everlasting impression, and I don't think that it will leave any impression at all outside the Superman fandom. I didn't continue because I didn't feel like doing it and because the format just isn't for me anymore. If you think that this has been an amazing year for Superman I guess that we have very different ideas of what "amazing" means, but OK.

Where did I say that Coates will magically fix Superman? I appreciate Coates as a journalist (I haven't read The Water Dancer though... Not yet) and I am interested in his pick, as I was interested in Lindelof's Watchmen (which I enjoyed even if I was disappointed in some elements). If it happens, and it works, fine. If it doesn't work, fine. Either way I don't think that we will ever get something Avengers-like in size or popularity. But maybe we will, who knows. I am probably more interested in the experiment itself and in Coates' involvement than it being a Superman project.
I understand that you 100% fully rejected SW after a certain moment in your life, but you shouldn't think that everyone should have the exact same reactions after leaving the characters they loved when they were younger. It's not that I feel the need to consider myself a Superman fan just because I still enjoy Morrison and I post here once every three months, especially when I read completely different stuff for the rest of my time.

I'll tell you that - the fact that companies such as DC clearly DON'T believe in comic books anymore makes me sad. That's something which saddens me more than any Superman failure.

[I'm a Fish]

Man, my latest posts on this forum date back to March/April and I don't even remember the ones before that, does this qualify me as a "fan"? Am I supposed to be on trial because I said that I am not as interested in Superman as I was 20 years ago?
Jokes aside, I still come here because I have a couple of friends on the forum and I like to keep in touch with them by PMs. That and the fact that I still enjoy the corporate drama. And... That's it, I guess.
I'll give you that - I have a good opinion of PKJ as a writer (mostly for The Last God) and I am interested in Superman/Authority because - obviously - I have a high consideration of Morrison. Having said that, I have read a couple of issues from PKJ's Superman run and OK, it is fine and probably better than Bendis at his worst (I didn't read every single Bendis issue though), even if I don't think that it will ultimately leave an everlasting impression, and I don't think that it will leave any impression at all outside the Superman fandom. I didn't continue because I didn't feel like doing it and because the format just isn't for me anymore. If you think that this has been an amazing year for Superman I guess that we have very different ideas of what "amazing" means, but OK.

Where did I say that Coates will magically fix Superman? I appreciate Coates as a journalist (I haven't read The Water Dancer though... Not yet) and I am interested in his pick, as I was interested in Lindelof's Watchmen (which I enjoyed even if I was disappointed in some elements). If it happens, and it works, fine. If it doesn't work, fine. Either way I don't think that we will ever get something Avengers-like in size or popularity. But maybe we will, who knows. I am probably more interested in the experiment itself and in Coates' involvement than it being a Superman project.
I understand that you 100% fully rejected SW after a certain moment in your life, but you shouldn't think that everyone should have the exact same reactions after leaving the characters they loved when they were younger. It's not that I feel the need to consider myself a Superman fan just because I still enjoy Morrison and I post here once every three months, especially when I read completely different stuff for the rest of my time.

I'll tell you that - the fact that companies such as DC clearly DON'T believe in comic books anymore makes me sad. That's something which saddens me more than any Superman failure.

I think you are getting DC and AT&T confused.

[Myskin]

I think you are getting DC and AT&T confused.

These days it's hard to tell them apart.