Superman and the Authority

[NaVi]

It seems that I was right when I said that DC wanted to turn Superman into a villain, DC's plans have failed but only for now, I doubt that next time someone will decide to intervene and save Superman from an inevitable path.

[Adekis]

Snyderverse never got to do evil Superman. Invincible was not a thing when this conversation between Didio and Morrison took place. Not sure about The Boys.

The comic of the Boys would have been. It wasn't really in the public eye until the show came out though, which googling says started in 2019? I don't know whether that lines up with the timeline or not, but I think it's pretty clear that either way Didio had plenty of evidence just from DC, that Evil Superman was a thing he liked - be that from the Justice Lords, Injustice, or Brutaal on the New 52 Earth 2.

I'm of two minds about Snyderverse's inclusion. On the one hand, ZS teased the possibility of an evil Superman pretty heavily in BvS, and later in ZSJL, with tons of fans still clamoring to see his Evil Superman story through to fruition.

On the other hand, the way his films characterize Superman is not at all in that category, and it drives me up the wall when a certain type of fan acts as though Superman is evil in those movies, when... he's just straight up not.

[Mojo]

The comic of the Boys would have been. It wasn't really in the public eye until the show came out though, which googling says started in 2019? I don't know whether that lines up with the timeline or not, but I think it's pretty clear that either way Didio had plenty of evidence just from DC, that Evil Superman was a thing he liked - be that from the Justice Lords, Injustice, or Brutaal on the New 52 Earth 2.

I'm of two minds about Snyderverse's inclusion. On the one hand, ZS teased the possibility of an evil Superman pretty heavily in BvS, and later in ZSJL, with tons of fans still clamoring to see his Evil Superman story through to fruition.

On the other hand, the way his films characterize Superman is not at all in that category, and it drives me up the wall when a certain type of fan acts as though Superman is evil in those movies, when... he's just straight up not.

Yeah I have some issues with how Synder writes Superman but If I recall right, yeah he had plans for an antagonistic Superman but it wasn't going to be a willing thing where he snaps and goes evil, He'd fall into despair after Lois's (And Diana and Arthur's) deaths sure but THAT wouldn't turn him evil it would of put him in a place where Darkseid would use the Anti-Life Equation and he wouldn't be able to resist it so he'd become Darkseid's mind controlled thrall. Then they would have to time travel to prevent this from happening before Superman and the League fought Darkseid proper and stuff and prevented him from unleashing Anti-Life in the first place.

Basically yes there would of been an evil Superman in his movies but it would of been a completely unwilling thing on Clarks part, he'd literally have been bound to Darkseid's will by his EVIL MATH. a Mind Control situation vs something like Injustice where he snaps and becomes evil of his own will.

[Superlad93]

Okay, so lets say Morrison doesn't do his version of older Clark for 5G and DiDio's take was it

Be very, very honest with yourself...

If you make the majority of that guy's history count and shape him...

Is he not a more right leaning than left on most days and in most takes?

Don't bring me none of that "but in the early Golden age blah blah blah", or "he renounced his citizenship blah blah blah" or "New 52 blah blah blah". I ain't ask all that. In his 80 something year history that's anecdotal. That's the exception rather than the rule. From mid Golden age to Tomasi's Rebirth Clark Kent is a centrist at his best, and flat out right the rest of the time.

[Mojo]

Okay, so lets say Morrison doesn't do his version of older Clark for 5G and DiDio's take was it

Be very, very honest with yourself...

If you make the majority of that guy's history count and shape him...

Is he not a more right leaning than left on most days and in most takes?

Don't bring me none of that "but in the early Golden age blah blah blah", or "he renounced his citizenship blah blah blah" or "New 52 blah blah blah". I ain't ask all that. In his 80 something year history that's anecdotal. That's the exception rather than the rule. From mid Golden age to Tomasi's Rebirth Clark Kent is a centrist at his best, and flat out right the rest of the time.

Generally speaking Superman makes it a point to avoid talking about his personal political beliefs but Left vs Right really isn't what matters here, it's the AUTHORITARIAN part. The whole Evil Authoritarian Superman thing that's become so played out.

You could say "Well Superman's a Left Wing Authortarian now" and make him SUPER STALIN or whatever, and it'd mostly the same problems.

[Superlad93]

Generally speaking Superman makes it a point to avoid talking about his personal political beliefs but Left vs Right really isn't what matters here, it's the AUTHORITARIAN part. The whole Evil Authoritarian Superman thing that's become so played out.

You could say "Well Superman's a Left Wing Authortarian now" and make him SUPER STALIN or whatever, and it'd mostly the same problems.

The funny thing about that is that his history as a character (if you were to take him as one guy like 5G would've) also supports this to a degree. Maybe more so than we're comfortable seeing.

It's why you get really good but super uncomfortable stories out of the times when you show these characters growing well past their primes. Suddenly all of those broken ribs, scar tissue, and head trauma leaves Bruce in a pretty sorry state in his 60s. All of the dysfunctional relationships that made for drama for the perpetual now find end points and characters aren't left in a good spot because these aren't sustainable lives.

And in the specific case of Clark, you don't have to really wrack your brain to see how he could reasonably become a bit more authoritarian-- again, if it's all one guy. Kingdom Come. And the term "authoritarian" doesn't actually have to mean Injustice level or "evil". But rather a man who is having his powers wax a wane and because of that opts for a tighter grip. It's a super mid life crisis for a guy who historically is allergic to change despite being called "the man of tomorrow".

[Robanker]

Okay, so lets say Morrison doesn't do his version of older Clark for 5G and DiDio's take was it

Be very, very honest with yourself...

If you make the majority of that guy's history count and shape him...

Is he not a more right leaning than left on most days and in most takes?

Don't bring me none of that "but in the early Golden age blah blah blah", or "he renounced his citizenship blah blah blah" or "New 52 blah blah blah". I ain't ask all that. In his 80 something year history that's anecdotal. That's the exception rather than the rule. From mid Golden age to Tomasi's Rebirth Clark Kent is a centrist at his best, and flat out right the rest of the time.

He usually reads more center-left to me save for the 50s and Byrne era, but that requires us to look at what was the left/right at the time. It wasn't as fiercely polarized the way it is now, at least not overtly in media. Frankly, all superheroes had some red in them under the comics code.

The character tends to run centrist almost the entire time, but he only really broke right under a few specific instances and you could say the same for him going left before the modern era where he's pretty firmly center-left. Yeah, it's easy to discount the golden age, citizenship or New 52 stuff as moments, but the same could be said for shit like DKR, Byrne and so forth.

The character tends to be held in the center, but I'd look to his creators before I look to Byrne when deciding which side of the coin he flops on at the end.

[Adekis]

No, Superman is not a naturally right-leaning character. Full stop. And definitely not an authoritarian fascist figure.

[Vordan]

Okay, so lets say Morrison doesn't do his version of older Clark for 5G and DiDio's take was it

Be very, very honest with yourself...

If you make the majority of that guy's history count and shape him...

Is he not a more right leaning than left on most days and in most takes?

Don't bring me none of that "but in the early Golden age blah blah blah", or "he renounced his citizenship blah blah blah" or "New 52 blah blah blah". I ain't ask all that. In his 80 something year history that's anecdotal. That's the exception rather than the rule. From mid Golden age to Tomasi's Rebirth Clark Kent is a centrist at his best, and flat out right the rest of the time.

Honestly I’d say he’s usually politically where Obama/Biden are. He’s not a radical or a socialist, but he opposes lethal force, cares about the environment, and tends to be pro immigration. Byrne made him a “super-Republican” but once the Triangle Era hit they started moving away from that take. Ultimately it’s like what Morrison said in The Curse of Superman, Superman becomes whatever you want him to be. Most writers are liberal and thus most heroes are as well. The pop culture Superman however? Definitely a hardcore conservative.

I mean hell consider the Chris Reeve Superman. He’s typically seen as this refugee from the 50s who arrives in 1970s NYC, with him typically written off as conservative. Bad as it was, Superman IV still has Superman taking an anti-nuke stance at the height of the Reagan admin, which is pretty “Hollywood liberal”. So I’d push back against him being “right-wing” as a natural state for him. Center to center-left is where he usually lies.

[HsssH]

I think that super-hero genre is inherently right-wing. Heroes always preserve status quo, they never change the world, they are always reactionary, existing institutions are never the problem (only few bad apples that need to be rooted out), in fact many have secret identities that are part of these institutions. Even many things that liberal writers propose are right leaning. For example, Taylor did whole thing about Nightwing caring about poor people and doing a big charity with the money that he inherited. In USA Republicans are top charity givers and charities are often used as a talking point to argue against higher taxes or creation of new (or reforming existing) institutions. Right-wing likes charities in general.

Super-hero universes also pretty much rule out atheism as something viable.

[BBally]

I'd say Superman for the most part of his history has been more Centre-Left.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Superheroes started out with counter-culture elements but that got sawed off once they went mainstream. You could blame "Seduction of the Innocent" and the comics code.

[BBally]

Two of my collogues at a call centre I used to work at once said that Injustice Superman should be the canon version because it "made sense". I remember standing there speechless when they said that.

[FFJamie94]

I think that super-hero genre is inherently right-wing. Heroes always preserve status quo, they never change the world, they are always reactionary, existing institutions are never the problem (only few bad apples that need to be rooted out), in fact many have secret identities that are part of these institutions. Even many things that liberal writers propose are right leaning. For example, Taylor did whole thing about Nightwing caring about poor people and doing a big charity with the money that he inherited. In USA Republicans are top charity givers and charities are often used as a talking point to argue against higher taxes or creation of new (or reforming existing) institutions. Right-wing likes charities in general.

Super-hero universes also pretty much rule out atheism as something viable.

Super heroes are indeed, inherently right wing, but a lot of creative teams tend to either have left leaning People spearheading the stories.
I actually think the Nightwing comic presents something more left leaning. Yes, charities are loved by right wing parties, but they aren’t always a right wing idea or belief. What this new Nightwing comic seems to want to do is actually change the systems that create People to commit acts of violence instead of vigilante justice.
There is a want to actually fix the homeless crises in Nightwing rather than just turn a blind eye to it.

It’s kind of like a reaction to FEAST in Spider-man. While it’s always good to help those in need, it doesn’t fix the issue. That Homeless Person Aunt May helped is still going to be Homeless tomorrow. Yet in Nightwing, the comic itself suggests that maybe you can help those by changing and fixing the systems that made that Person homeless anyway. It’s something which comics don’t really tackle.

In terms of Superman, yeah, he is pretty much centre right. He believes in his own form of justice, much like Captain America. Effectively his values are more serve and protect rather than illicit any real change.

And that’s kind of fine, with this kind of long form storytelling and the fact these are characters we enjoy reading about, I don’t mind reading inherently right wing ideas (as a massive leftie myself), I think the ideas aren’t inherently bad in a fiction universe.
But I’m just glad that folks like Batman and Superman don’t exist in the real world.

Now would Superman be a hard right super power? Nope. Many heroes can accept change in terms of real world values, but it’s their job to not effectively protect the status quo.

[Ascended]

Is he not a more right leaning than left on most days and in most takes?

I don't think so, no. I think there are certain eras and phases where he's clearly right leaning, but those are no more numerous or lengthy than the times where he's clearly left leaning. I think you might be taking his generally apolitical stance as a form of support for the status quo, but that's not necessarily the case, nor is that overt support for right leaning policies.

If we take a generalized, big picture view of his character and the political opinions he'd likely hold across his history, I think you end up with a guy who's a centrist independent who agrees with both sides on certain issues and disagrees with both on others.