Superman and the Authority

[Superlad93]

I would've preferred something a lot simpler like a basic timeskip.

Personally, I'd have gone for a mix. Hammering out enough of a hard timeline to make for a cohesive universe is a good idea no matter how you slice it. But needing to start Clark as far back as the 1930s is a is something that wasn't completely need (even though I'm totally good with and even in favor of the general idea).

A timeskip similar to how the Legion did it would've totally worked (and still could work). Nail down the ages of everyone that seems like they should be in their late 40s/early 50s and simply skip forward 10 or so years forward to where they're now comfortably in their middle age and Dick's gen is in their late 30s to early 40s.

That would've left it so Jon and Damian were in their very early 20s. As a bonus you make it so Jon joins a very young Legion at age 11 to 13 (while they're like 13 or 14 or something), and the Legion then has 10 years worth of room to tell stories basically forever, and the age up never actually goes down so people aren't bitching about that. Like, he'd literally spend the summer with Jor-El, get trapped on Earth-3 for like a month, and then come back on like his 13th birthday and found the United Planets on his birthday.

Keep the Wonder Woman being the first superhero and forming the JSA thing.

5G really would only appeal to the die hard canon scholars and feel like HW to everyone else.

I don't think that's actually true, and I think people are getting too stuck on the timeline itself. The fact of the matter is that 5G would've basically had the idea draw for new readers as the New 52 because the point of it is ultimately the present day. That's why it's called 5G aka Generation 5. It's about that generation, and through them new fans connect. The world would've also been so new and changed that it may as well have been a reimagining from scratch.

The nerd/hardcore crowd would've gotten their fix doing all the deep dive homework that's there if you want it but not at all required to read the Gen 5 stuff-- which is the point. Again, it's like getting into Lord of The Rings and some people do the deep dives into the worldbuilding to find out the history of the world, and some people are just their for the present day story that functions as a relatively self contained jumping off point.

Once you take into account the fact that DiDio kept saying that the stories in Gen 2 (aka when Clark and Bruce started out as Superman and Batman) were still stories yet to be told, it's clear that he wanted to have a place to tell new never-before-seen stories about the older generation in their prime that would be for the more seasoned fans. He was trying to create a living breathing universe. He just needed to make his case better and be open to some edits.

Unfortunately it didn't work out, and the DCU is in one of the most half assed and directionless states I've ever seen it with Williamson doing the worst Grant Morrison impression I've ever seen while they literally regress back into past stories like Flashpoint and Death of Superman but "bigger and now it's the whole JLA". This is what a writer and company look like when they aren't willing to commit to anything other than just getting by. The D student of creativity and conviction.

[Vordan]

I'm sure that Morrison wasn't thrilled that New 52 happened in the middle of Batman Inc. run, but hey, Morrison went with it and delivered a satisfying conclusion instead of doing an "intervention". And well, we see what good Snyder's intervention did for DC - bad sales, lack of interest and lack of clear direction. And Snyder is doing Comixology originals or whatever the hell instead of owning up to the mess that he helped create.

Because Morrison was disillusioned with corporate comics and was planning their exit. They didn’t give a damn what DC did anymore, they were done. Snyder meanwhile still loved DC at the time. Blaming him for IF’s failure feels insane to be frank. There’s a multitude of factors that are responsible, some of which Snyder and Williamson had no control over, such as the failure of Doomsday Clock to deliver on all the Rebirth promises or Heroes in Crisis pissing people off. Death Metal sold better than Metal per Snyder, so you can’t say he didn’t deliver sales to DC.

I think backlash would have been stronger. Batman and Green Lantern fans didn't have that many complaints about New 52 and Morrison writing Action sounded real cool. Probably everyone would have been mad about 5G.

Replacing Bruce as Batman pretty much guaranteed there was never any real chance of 5G sticking. Without Bruce to uplift the line I sincerely doubt there would have been much interest beyond the early attention making Batman black would’ve gotten.

[Ascended]

We'll probably never know what the details were meant to be, and I certainly haven't heard a ton. But 5G, I think, could have been pretty solid. With Didio involved I wouldn't have bet on it, but the concept itself isn't nearly as different from what we have now as people seem to think.

Y'all are getting caught up on the timeline, but that's just the canon. We always have timelines. We even have them now, such as they are. 5G was simply taking a "everything more or less happened" approach and letting characters get old enough that each generation had a little room to breath. Right now we've got several generations that're all active, and quite close to each other in age. Jon is 17-18 now, Conner is 16-17 (or older?) and Kara is only a couple years older than Jon, I think? Damian is 13, Tim 16, Jason is what, around 21? I wouldn't have been against the idea of adding some more distance between those age groups.

My assumption at the time was that we'd get a lot of flashbacks, either as backup stories, page-eating subplots, miniseries, or ongoing titles of their own. That way you'd have both the classic status quo and the new one available. Fans of the classic versions of characters would have something to read, and not feel as threatened by the new stuff.

I think in theory it could have worked. In theory, it could have changed the way we think of DC and the whole superhero narrative. Ongoing stories within the same setting that covers the expanse of decades? That's a lot of variety to offer, that allows the setting to actually change and for characters to carry a heavier impact on their surroundings. It could have been pretty amazing. DC might have fumbled the whole thing, as they did so many other things, and if I had to bet money I'd bet they would have. But Superlad's not wrong; it could have been cool as hell if it had been done right. And for all we know it would have been.

[Frontier]

We'll probably never know what the details were meant to be, and I certainly haven't heard a ton. But 5G, I think, could have been pretty solid. With Didio involved I wouldn't have bet on it, but the concept itself isn't nearly as different from what we have now as people seem to think.

Y'all are getting caught up on the timeline, but that's just the canon. We always have timelines. We even have them now, such as they are. 5G was simply taking a "everything more or less happened" approach and letting characters get old enough that each generation had a little room to breath. Right now we've got several generations that're all active, and quite close to each other in age. Jon is 17-18 now, Conner is 16-17 (or older?) and Kara is only a couple years older than Jon, I think? Damian is 13, Tim 16, Jason is what, around 21? I wouldn't have been against the idea of adding some more distance between those age groups.

My assumption at the time was that we'd get a lot of flashbacks, either as backup stories, page-eating subplots, miniseries, or ongoing titles of their own. That way you'd have both the classic status quo and the new one available. Fans of the classic versions of characters would have something to read, and not feel as threatened by the new stuff.

I think in theory it could have worked. In theory, it could have changed the way we think of DC and the whole superhero narrative. Ongoing stories within the same setting that covers the expanse of decades? That's a lot of variety to offer, that allows the setting to actually change and for characters to carry a heavier impact on their surroundings. It could have been pretty amazing. DC might have fumbled the whole thing, as they did so many other things, and if I had to bet money I'd bet they would have. But Superlad's not wrong; it could have been cool as hell if it had been done right. And for all we know it would have been.

My big concern is I feel like having the main focus be on the fifth generation with disparate books in the other Generations would've screwed over a lot of the non Big-7 characters unless they got 5G legacies, but that wouldn't be quite the same.

Not that DC does great by them in general, but I at least feel better about it in a more stable present-day continuity.

[exile001]

I think a few years of 5G before reverting and keeping the new characters could have worked. It's basically what Marvel did with the Marvel Now/All New, All Different initiatives and they got a lot of decent characters from it, several of which are getting Disney+ TV shows. Moon Girl & Devil Dinosaur, Ms Marvel, Squirrel Girl all held titles for years. SG nearly got a cartoon.

DC has always been happy to remove new, secondary or just non-trinity characters from continuity but rarely had the nerve to focus entirely on new characters. It's one of the reasons the Young Adult line is working so well (that and eschewing all previous cannon to tell one complete story).

[The Frog Bros]

Part 3 of Morrison's substack is out (and probably more interesting than doing work at our jobs, least for me right now, heh).

https://grantmorrison.substack.com/p...utm_source=url

Love hearing them describe how the initial tone was on the jokier farcical side of things... until they saw the art from Janin. Still keeping it cheeky of course:

Nothing is taken entirely seriously in Superman and the Authority, but as with Xermanico on Blackstars, I asked Mikel to sell the joke by drawing it all totally straight.

And the obligatory (and appreciated) Sex Pistols reference:

Some readers felt we’d turned Manchester Black into a John Constantine manque. I see where they’re coming from and apologize for any likeness but Black smokes roll-ups rather than Silk Cut and he’s London Irish, unlike Constantine, who tends to be written as Liverpool via Albert Square. Those are the sounds of hairs splitting, I know, but there it is.
...
In Superman and the Authority Manchester Black, is drawn to be younger and more handsome, directly inspired by 1976 John Lydon AKA Johnny Rotten as becomes clear when you read all his dialogue in Lydon’s sly, sarcastic whine…

Gets in to the whole Kennedy thing as well, starting off with this gem:

Superman and Kennedy – the World’s Finest duo of uncritical boomer nostalgia!

Of course, starting off this segment describing their unshaven look as Sean Connery in Highlander... now that's an image.

Cool bit about consulting with Taylor and PKJ, who they seem to have high regard.

I was drawn to Phillip’s observation that, although rules of the fictional DCU Earth meant that Superman could never truly change the world of the monthly comics out of all recognition, he could still change other worlds – the thrill of seeing dictators fall and authoritarian regimes crumble before the might of the good guys could be indulged as allegory and metaphor without seeming crassly literal or trivializing real world problems.

[Ascended]

My big concern is I feel like having the main focus be on the fifth generation with disparate books in the other Generations would've screwed over a lot of the non Big-7 characters unless they got 5G legacies, but that wouldn't be quite the same.

Not that DC does great by them in general, but I at least feel better about it in a more stable present-day continuity.

Yeah, that crossed my mind back then too. Harder for the B- and C-list to get books if you need "classic era" titles and "new era" titles for all the Big Name heroes/franchises.

But it's not like those secondary characters are getting a ton of books now either, so where's the harm? And it's possible that spreading the line across decades would have actually made some room for other characters. A G3 Justice League title might've used the Satellite era roster, while a G4 would've used the Big 7 or something. Again, my trust in Didio era DC is/was real damn low so I'm not saying 5G would've absolutely been a great thing, but I think there was potential in the basic concept (at least what I've heard of it). I'd love to hear, someday, what the plan actually was and how DC planned to execute it.

Personally, I think the whole thing might have gone over better as a line of bookstore and Scholastic OGN's. That market is far more welcoming of new/secondary characters than the direct market usually is and likely wouldn't have had fans and creators alike throwing such fits. The line could have been marketed as the "DCU of Tomorrow" and essentially serve as a fresh start while claiming to come from "all the comic book stories you loved!" Sort of like how the Marvel tv shows were supposed to be part of the MCU but actually only connected in small, easter egg-y ways, the OGN line could have claimed the pedigree of main continuity while the direct market retained its own autonomy. Of course, if that had actually worked Didio might still have his job, so Dick, Wally, and even Clark might not be enjoying the quality effort they're getting now, and I wouldn't trade the success of the last year for any amount of 5G OGN's.

[Ra-El]

5G was ambitious and all, but it doesn't matter if Jace would be the "main" Batman, in the end Bruce would still be leading a third of DC's line up and his stories would be the important ones.

That's the problem with those big ideas, they may change the direction of the universe, but they don't change the direction of the company, and that is Batman(Bruce) first. We would most likely end up with Yara, Jon and Bruce as the new trinity, while Jace would be relegated to the streets of New York anyway.

I don't care about charts showing wich heroes show up in each decade or what war they did or didn't fought in. What I want is for Black Label be more than Batman and Harley Quinn, instead of 5 Batman books to have a Doctor Fate or Vixen book.

[Frontier]

Yeah, that crossed my mind back then too. Harder for the B- and C-list to get books if you need "classic era" titles and "new era" titles for all the Big Name heroes/franchises.

But it's not like those secondary characters are getting a ton of books now either, so where's the harm? And it's possible that spreading the line across decades would have actually made some room for other characters. A G3 Justice League title might've used the Satellite era roster, while a G4 would've used the Big 7 or something. Again, my trust in Didio era DC is/was real damn low so I'm not saying 5G would've absolutely been a great thing, but I think there was potential in the basic concept (at least what I've heard of it). I'd love to hear, someday, what the plan actually was and how DC planned to execute it.

Personally, I think the whole thing might have gone over better as a line of bookstore and Scholastic OGN's. That market is far more welcoming of new/secondary characters than the direct market usually is and likely wouldn't have had fans and creators alike throwing such fits. The line could have been marketed as the "DCU of Tomorrow" and essentially serve as a fresh start while claiming to come from "all the comic book stories you loved!" Sort of like how the Marvel tv shows were supposed to be part of the MCU but actually only connected in small, easter egg-y ways, the OGN line could have claimed the pedigree of main continuity while the direct market retained its own autonomy. Of course, if that had actually worked Didio might still have his job, so Dick, Wally, and even Clark might not be enjoying the quality effort they're getting now, and I wouldn't trade the success of the last year for any amount of 5G OGN's.

I just don't see them publishing too many competing timeline JL books unless they were standalone mini's.

But I guess it could be a matter of degrees. Maybe characters like Zatanna, Green Arrow, and Black Canary would have fared better than Captain Atom, Elongated Man, or poor Vibe.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I think a few years of 5G before reverting and keeping the new characters could have worked. It's basically what Marvel did with the Marvel Now/All New, All Different initiatives and they got a lot of decent characters from it, several of which are getting Disney+ TV shows. Moon Girl & Devil Dinosaur, Ms Marvel, Squirrel Girl all held titles for years. SG nearly got a cartoon.

DC has always been happy to remove new, secondary or just non-trinity characters from continuity but rarely had the nerve to focus entirely on new characters. It's one of the reasons the Young Adult line is working so well (that and eschewing all previous cannon to tell one complete story).

Maybe 5G could be fodder for Zoom, Ink and Black Label?

5G was ambitious and all, but it doesn't matter if Jace would be the "main" Batman, in the end Bruce would still be leading a third of DC's line up and his stories would be the important ones.

That's the problem with those big ideas, they may change the direction of the universe, but they don't change the direction of the company, and that is Batman(Bruce) first. We would most likely end up with Yara, Jon and Bruce as the new trinity, while Jace would be relegated to the streets of New York anyway.

I don't care about charts showing wich heroes show up in each decade or what war they did or didn't fought in. What I want is for Black Label be more than Batman and Harley Quinn, instead of 5 Batman books to have a Doctor Fate or Vixen book.

This is the closest to how I felt.

Personally, I'd have gone for a mix. Hammering out enough of a hard timeline to make for a cohesive universe is a good idea no matter how you slice it. But needing to start Clark as far back as the 1930s is a is something that wasn't completely need (even though I'm totally good with and even in favor of the general idea).

A timeskip similar to how the Legion did it would've totally worked (and still could work). Nail down the ages of everyone that seems like they should be in their late 40s/early 50s and simply skip forward 10 or so years forward to where they're now comfortably in their middle age and Dick's gen is in their late 30s to early 40s.

That would've left it so Jon and Damian were in their very early 20s. As a bonus you make it so Jon joins a very young Legion at age 11 to 13 (while they're like 13 or 14 or something), and the Legion then has 10 years worth of room to tell stories basically forever, and the age up never actually goes down so people aren't bitching about that. Like, he'd literally spend the summer with Jor-El, get trapped on Earth-3 for like a month, and then come back on like his 13th birthday and found the United Planets on his birthday.

Keep the Wonder Woman being the first superhero and forming the JSA thing.



I don't think that's actually true, and I think people are getting too stuck on the timeline itself. The fact of the matter is that 5G would've basically had the idea draw for new readers as the New 52 because the point of it is ultimately the present day. That's why it's called 5G aka Generation 5. It's about that generation, and through them new fans connect. The world would've also been so new and changed that it may as well have been a reimagining from scratch.

The nerd/hardcore crowd would've gotten their fix doing all the deep dive homework that's there if you want it but not at all required to read the Gen 5 stuff-- which is the point. Again, it's like getting into Lord of The Rings and some people do the deep dives into the worldbuilding to find out the history of the world, and some people are just their for the present day story that functions as a relatively self contained jumping off point.

Once you take into account the fact that DiDio kept saying that the stories in Gen 2 (aka when Clark and Bruce started out as Superman and Batman) were still stories yet to be told, it's clear that he wanted to have a place to tell new never-before-seen stories about the older generation in their prime that would be for the more seasoned fans. He was trying to create a living breathing universe. He just needed to make his case better and be open to some edits.

Unfortunately it didn't work out, and the DCU is in one of the most half assed and directionless states I've ever seen it with Williamson doing the worst Grant Morrison impression I've ever seen while they literally regress back into past stories like Flashpoint and Death of Superman but "bigger and now it's the whole JLA". This is what a writer and company look like when they aren't willing to commit to anything other than just getting by. The D student of creativity and conviction.

I don't disagree with your end statement.

[Bruce Wayne]

I don't care about charts showing wich heroes show up in each decade or what war they did or didn't fought in. What I want is for Black Label be more than Batman and Harley Quinn, instead of 5 Batman books to have a Doctor Fate or Vixen book.

They have a dinosaur JLA book, an Aquaman horror book, a continuation of the Lemire/Snyder Swamp Thing/Animal Man and an upcoming Sandman related book. They are pretty diverse in terms of putting out content.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Part 3 of Morrison's substack is out (and probably more interesting than doing work at our jobs, least for me right now, heh).

https://grantmorrison.substack.com/p...utm_source=url

Love hearing them describe how the initial tone was on the jokier farcical side of things... until they saw the art from Janin. Still keeping it cheeky of course:



And the obligatory (and appreciated) Sex Pistols reference:



Gets in to the whole Kennedy thing as well, starting off with this gem:



Of course, starting off this segment describing their unshaven look as Sean Connery in Highlander... now that's an image.

Cool bit about consulting with Taylor and PKJ, who they seem to have high regard.

It's a fun read.

[Ra-El]

They have a dinosaur JLA book, an Aquaman horror book, a continuation of the Lemire/Snyder Swamp Thing/Animal Man and an upcoming Sandman related book. They are pretty diverse in terms of putting out content.

It is getting better this days, not to Superman related content, but it seems they are making some different choices.

But really, my doubt is this: DC doesn't ask or aprove Superman pitchs, or they don't receive it? Because I dread to think that all the pitchs they got for Superman was the DKR spin-off and the book about Lobo banging Superman's mom, that would be really sad.

[Ascended]

I just don't see them publishing too many competing timeline JL books unless they were standalone mini's.

But I guess it could be a matter of degrees. Maybe characters like Zatanna, Green Arrow, and Black Canary would have fared better than Captain Atom, Elongated Man, or poor Vibe.

With Didio era DC, it could go either way; he'd pivot between "everything is new and different! Books for all the D-list and new faces!" and "everything is classic and nostalgic! Books for the A-list only!" and when one direction would falter he'd flip to the other extreme. Rarely did his DC find a solid, sustainable middle ground...and even when they did find such footing they never stuck with it anyway.

And I imagine the secondary characters....yeah it'd be a matter of degrees. Ollie and Dinah and Zee are always going to get better treatment than Ralph, Captain Atom, and Vibe. We're comparing the B-list to the D-list, so it goes without saying. But 5G didn't happen and none of those characters have a solo and many aren't even in team books anyway, so again I ask; what would have changed? If 5G had happened we probably would have had a bunch of Bat books set during different generations, with limited room for less popular heroes. But without 5G, we still have an overabundance of Bat books and limited room for less popular heroes.

Maybe Didio intended for the entire regular line to be 5G, and classic eras would only get the occasional mini. Or maybe he intended to do a spread, with a handful of books set in each generation. I have no idea, and the cynic in me wants to say the execution likely would have been piss poor no matter what the plan was. All I'm saying is that the basic concept of 5G wasn't as hard to work with or understand as some folks seem to think, and it wouldn't have taken some kind of genius to make it work successfully. Whether DC would've been successful is another matter, but any incompetence on their end doesn't change whether the idea itself was viable.

[Superlad93]

Based off what has been said about what the intent for Gens 1 and 2 were, I have to imagine there would've been an ongoing JSA book that would've also doubled as a general Gen 1 anthology book. There were big ideas floating around like some new side to Tom and Martha Wayne, and the fact that Clark was working in secret as Superboy at the time, and I imagine they'd have explored them along with Wonder Woman now being the first superhero. And more than once DiDio said that Gen 2 (the era when Clark and Bruce are just starting out and in their primes) had totally new stories to tell, so I have to imagine they had almost an Earth One style reimagining set up for that era.

My guess is that JSA would've been ongoing, and we'd have gotten your Tom King types to basically do Human Target style prestige minis running regularly for Gen 2. Basically it would be making Black Label part of continuity.

But outside of that, based off the fact that Morrison seemed to confirm what I'd suspected and Clark's Authority book was supposed to be a third Superman book outside of Superman and Action, I have to imagine all the OGs were going to get old guard books to give them a home outside of their classic ones, and the new kids would get Superman/Action, Batman/Tec, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, and Flash. But clearly some are higher up on the list than others, and it's unlikely that say Arthur or Barry would get books of their own. They'd likely have been supporting characters in their successors' books, or they'd be on their version of the JSA.

As far as D list characters go? They possibly could've seen a new bump in status via being put in a new context, or you'd catch them in their prime in a Gen 2 mini (as if you see them all that much now to begin with). I know Ollie and Dinah were going to continue on as major players in Checkmate, and Checkmate was going to be DC's main Good Guy Secret Organization. But yeah, unless someone had a great idea to provide new context using the age up, guys like Vibe were going to continue doing the whole lotta nothing they're doing now, and have been doing for years.