Kingdom Come - 25 Years Later

[John Venus]

I was on Tumblr a couple of years back and there were a lot of Millenial and Zoomers who grew up with the Teen Titans and love Damian Wayne, drawing fan art and fan fic featuring Nightstar (Dick and Kory's daughter from KC) and Ibn Al Xu'ffasch (Bruce and Talia's kid in that universe). I think they hooked up in one of the KC universe sequels/spin offs and they loooooved the idea.

I would love to see DC revisit the universe and explore some of the threads. Like, why was Catwoman allying with Luthor?

I think it still holds up and is worthy of its status as a classic.

In many ways it solidified the idea of Superman, Batman AND Wonder Woman as the three pillars of DC. They'd interacted plenty of times before then, and Wonder Woman has been one of the biggest icons for decades, but Kingdom Come was one of the first--if not the first--to really present them as the TRINITY.

It also, in my opinion, presented an interesting take on Diana by exploring what she would be and do if she lost faith in herself and gave up on her belief in peace. That's kind of the critical thing with her in Kingdom Come: this is a Wonder Woman who believes she's failed and is overcompensating by turning into a fatalistic zealot. Diana dressing in full battle armor and waving a sword around in this story is a Diana who's given up on herself, and that's not a good thing.

The issue with Kingdom Come...as with many seminal works...is a lot of creators take the wrong lessons from it, and that has had a negative impact on Wonder Woman (and maybe the DC universe as a whole). Too many looked read this story and took away: "Wonder Woman with a sword is bad-ass!"
Not necessarily a bad thing it itself, but give it a few years, and we end up with the worst of the New 52 where Diana brags about chopping heads off and needs to be told to protect civilians during a battle.

But like I said, Kingdom Come itself still holds up despite some flaws (the conclusion to Wonder Woman's arc isn't conveyed as well as it should). Even if many fans and creators took the wrong lessons from it, and we're still feeling that impact to this day, I try not to let it diminish my appreciation for the original story.


For anyone interest, I go into greater detail on Kingdom Come and its impact on Wonder Woman here:
https://talkingtothevoid.blogspot.co...der-woman.html

I've mentioned it in a few other threads but I would love to see some kind of standalone OGN or something that explores KC Wonder Woman. I wouldn't mind if it was set in a universe that is like KC but not exactly. For the exact reasons you've stated, a WW whose lost faith in herself and her ideals is worth being fleshed out more.

Also, WW carrying a sword and brandishing armor was 'holy ****' moment for me when I first read it. It showed how dire the situation was getting that even someone as powerful as WW needed armor and a sword to deal with it and also an indicator of how disillusioned Diana was. The ultra powerful sword that could 'shave off electrons' and cut Superman was rad as hell when I first read but imo, repeated use of a sword has dulled it's impact.

[married guy]

Still one of the GREATEST DC stories ever told.
Waid & Ross at the top of their games delivered something that surpassed Ross' earlier series with Busiek - MARVELS. Which at the time didn't think possible.
Mark Waid is on record saying he had a hard time writing Wonder Woman, and while not perfect I thought he did a damn fine job.

[caj]

Its one of the best things DC ever published and probably the one Elseworlds that had a lasting impact on the main DCU. You can see it's influence in JLU during the Cadmus arc, the Gog story arc in JSA followed by that incredible epilogue, Infinite Crisis, anytime Wonder Woman brandishes a sword, the gold armor in WW84, Kevin Conroy's armor in CW's COIE cross over, Brandon Routh's KC Superman in that same cross over and it's more or less responsible for Damian Wayne: Batman and Talia having a son was first brought up in Son of the Demon, then KC showed a young adult Damian and when Grant Morrison's Batman run started, DC was in the process of making their universe more like the KC universe so we got Damian Wayne as a result. Cyclone/Maxine Hunkel was exported from the KC universe to the regular universe, Alan Scott's KC armor also appeared in regular DC continuity, 'Zatara' who was Zatanna and Constantine's child from KC was reimagined as Zatanna's cousin Zachary Zatara in the main DCU and Dick Grayson's 'Red Robin' costume was later adopted by Tim Drake pre-Nu52 and post Nu52. I'm sure I'm missing some more thing. Even The Dark Knight Rises referenced it with Bruce's 'so that's how that feels like' line (a few other adaptations have also done this) and Bruce needing specialized equipment to move around in, albeit not quite to the extent that KC Batman did. The Brave and the Bold cartoon also referenced KC particularly in the Trinity episode.

So yeah, without Kingdom Come, the DCU as we know it would be a very different place.

Nice post.

[Vordan]

It’s a flawed story that by Waid’s own admission doesn’t treat WW very well. Batman and Superman also both get let off the hook far too easily given what they do. Batman ran a fascist police state in Gotham with drones. Superman threw a bunch of people into what he himself called a “Gulag” (even if the “heroes” did deserve to be locked up), and then almost kills the UN. Neither of the two faces any real consequences for their actions.

Yet for all its flaws I’m still deeply fond of it. It was one of the first standalone stories for DC I ever read, and at least Waid is deliberately exploring versions of the characters that have “gone wrong”. Ross’ art also sells the story as this Biblical epic with superheroes.

I felt a bit let down by its ending, for Superman and Wonder Woman in particular. Overall tho, and loved it at the time and still do.

Among the other things it gave us are these forums. Jonah Weiland was running an internet message board for KC, and the regulars on it - the Pantheon we called ourselves back then - hung around after the series ended. In time, Jonah decided to make a business of his hobby and launched CBR.

That’s fascinating to read, crazy the impact one storyline can have on the wider industry and on people’s lives.

[superduperman]

I was on Tumblr a couple of years back and there were a lot of Millenial and Zoomers who grew up with the Teen Titans and love Damian Wayne, drawing fan art and fan fic featuring Nightstar (Dick and Kory's daughter from KC) and Ibn Al Xu'ffasch (Bruce and Talia's kid in that universe). I think they hooked up in one of the KC universe sequels/spin offs and they loooooved the idea.

I would love to see DC revisit the universe and explore some of the threads. Like, why was Catwoman allying with Luthor?



I've mentioned it in a few other threads but I would love to see some kind of standalone OGN or something that explores KC Wonder Woman. I wouldn't mind if it was set in a universe that is like KC but not exactly. For the exact reasons you've stated, a WW whose lost faith in herself and her ideals is worth being fleshed out more.

Also, WW carrying a sword and brandishing armor was 'holy ****' moment for me when I first read it. It showed how dire the situation was getting that even someone as powerful as WW needed armor and a sword to deal with it and also an indicator of how disillusioned Diana was. The ultra powerful sword that could 'shave off electrons' and cut Superman was rad as hell when I first read but imo, repeated use of a sword has dulled it's impact.

DC has set aside Earth 22 as the KC Earth. So if they ever want to revisit it, they've got one on hand. You don't think about the impact it has on the modern version of the comics. Gal Gadot's WW is basically the KC WW.

[I'm a Fish]

DC has set aside Earth 22 as the KC Earth. So if they ever want to revisit it, they've got one on hand. You don't think about the impact it has on the modern version of the comics. Gal Gadot's WW is basically the KC WW.

Eh, yes and no. She was way to naïve in her first movie to be KC Wondy, her second movie was closer to Marston depiction, but with depression. Snyder's Wondy is closer to KC though, but I don't think even that version of her would have approved of the "gulag" prison they had the anti-heroes in.

[Gaius]

DC has set aside Earth 22 as the KC Earth. So if they ever want to revisit it, they've got one on hand. You don't think about the impact it has on the modern version of the comics. Gal Gadot's WW is basically the KC WW.

I can’t really say I see it aside from wearing a variation of the KC armor in WW84. The closest would maybe be in BvS where it’s said she gave up on humanity. I can see Perez, Marston, and even Azzarello but KC is surface level at best.

[HsssH]

Eh, yes and no. She was way to naïve in her first movie to be KC Wondy, her second movie was closer to Marston depiction, but with depression. Snyder's Wondy is closer to KC though, but I don't think even that version of her would have approved of the "gulag" prison they had the anti-heroes in.

Gulga was one of the stupidest ideas in KC, I'm not sure that there are many versions of the characters (asides of going full evil like Injustice) that would approve of it.

[kcekada]

My biggest problem with it (which was later explained in JSA) was why Superman survived the nuclear explosion -- and none of the Marvels did. It didn't appear that they were sharing their powers -- so Mary and Freddy should have survived. Power Girl was questionable as her power levels varied quite a bit in the 90s.

Later, it was shown that Superman was plucked from time just prior to detonation (and transported to the JSA story mentioned above). He was later returned a few moments after detonation.

I really like the build up the Teen Titans offspring. It was definitely a huge story in its day!

[liwanag]

My biggest problem with it (which was later explained in JSA) was why Superman survived the nuclear explosion -- and none of the Marvels did. It didn't appear that they were sharing their powers -- so Mary and Freddy should have survived. Power Girl was questionable as her power levels varied quite a bit in the 90s.

Later, it was shown that Superman was plucked from time just prior to detonation (and transported to the JSA story mentioned above). He was later returned a few moments after detonation.

I really like the build up the Teen Titans offspring. It was definitely a huge story in its day!

so the bomb was strong enough to actually kill superman?

[king81992]

Kingdom Come was basically a double edged sword, equal parts good and bad, possibly causing long term damage depending on who you ask.

[silly]

The main draw for me was Alex Ross's art, and less on the story.

[caj]

I was on Tumblr a couple of years back and there were a lot of Millenial and Zoomers who grew up with the Teen Titans and love Damian Wayne, drawing fan art and fan fic featuring Nightstar (Dick and Kory's daughter from KC) and Ibn Al Xu'ffasch (Bruce and Talia's kid in that universe). I think they hooked up in one of the KC universe sequels/spin offs and they loooooved the idea.

I would love to see DC revisit the universe and explore some of the threads. Like, why was Catwoman allying with Luthor?

Agree. That would be interesting. I keep waiting for Nightwing and Starfire to get back together in the current universe but not sure it's ever going to happen.

[John Venus]

Sadly, DC is more about Dick/Babs these days than Dick/Starfire (DickFire? lol). We'll see how Titans Academy works out though.

[superduperman]

My biggest problem with it (which was later explained in JSA) was why Superman survived the nuclear explosion -- and none of the Marvels did. It didn't appear that they were sharing their powers -- so Mary and Freddy should have survived. Power Girl was questionable as her power levels varied quite a bit in the 90s.

Later, it was shown that Superman was plucked from time just prior to detonation (and transported to the JSA story mentioned above). He was later returned a few moments after detonation.

I really like the build up the Teen Titans offspring. It was definitely a huge story in its day!

There's a couple of potential explanations for this. 1) Superman's powers were at an incredibly high level due to years of absorbing solar radiation. 2) Power Girl's powers were kind of a mystery in the nineties. Remember, she wasn't considered Kryptonian back then. She was vulnerable to anything organic (yes, it was as stupid a weakness as it sounded like). Now, later retcons of that universe made her his cousin but that just creates even more mystery around why she was killed and he wasn't.