Kingdom Come - 25 Years Later

[Johnny Thunders!]

I know Captain Marvel is a sore spot, but he made the best foil for Superman ever. That one panel where he stops Superman mid flight, I was seething with anger at seeing Supes put down that fast but what are you going to do, that's an evil Captain Marvel. I so love the fact the old Wally Wood Captain Marbles story was an inspiration.

[caj]

I loved most everything about it. The biggest disappointment I had with the story was the fate of J'onn J'onzz. It was hard to see him so vulnerable and weak. Very sad.

[kcekada]

so the bomb was strong enough to actually kill superman?

Probably, but I guess the original story meant that he survived the detonation.

[caj]

Later, it was shown that Superman was plucked from time just prior to detonation (and transported to the JSA story mentioned above). He was later returned a few moments after detonation.

Not having read the Kingdom Come storyline in Justice Society of America, I had no idea about this.

I always assumed Superman was strong enough to survive the bomb. I don't know a lot about the Marvel family but always assumed Superman's powers were different than theirs in some ways. Other than Kryptonite and magic, I always thought that Superman was powerful enough to survive anything. (at least the Pre-Crisis Superman)

[kcekada]

Pre-Crisis Superman would have survived -- no doubt.

There was some word that since Captain Marvel had uttered Shazam to detonate the bombs before they hit -- he sacrificed himself -- as he would have been Billy at that point. I'd have to go back and reread it -- because I thought the idea in KC was that he could call down the lightning but then race out of the way so it hit where he was originally. I think this was first introduced in the Superman/Shazam tabloid.

Regardless, it was never made clear if Cap would have survived or not. Since Freddy and Mary didn't -- one could assume that Cap would not have survived. And that's probably why the JSA story showed that Superman wasn't there -- as despite some differences in power set -- Captain Marvel and Superman are virtually equal.

[caj]

So, was Spectre and Norman McCay not really there when the bomb went off? Just observing from afar?

I mean, Spectre probably could've survived it, but no way McCay could have.

[superduperman]

So, was Spectre and Norman McCay not really there when the bomb went off? Just observing from afar?

I mean, Spectre probably could've survived it, but no way McCay could have.

McCay wasn't a physical being through most of it. There were only two times he materialized. When he appeared on the JLA satellite and at the UN when he tried to stop Superman.

[caj]

McCay wasn't a physical being through most of it. There were only two times he materialized. When he appeared on the JLA satellite and at the UN when he tried to stop Superman.

Makes sense. Thanks.

[atomicskull]

I can't say that I'm a fan. I read Kingdom Come twice. This was years ago. I look at Kingdom Come as Waid and Ross being two bitter Silver Age fanboys throwing a tantrum because superheroes and comic books in general weren't the same as they were when those two guys were growing up. So to them anything that doesn't lineup with their view was automatically wrong. I look at Kingdom Come as this gigantic middle finger towards the 90s era of comics, the folks who created them and the ones who bought them. I don't even glance at Waid's and Ross' work ever since reading Kingdom Come. To this day, I have never checked out any of their work. A lot of people pleaded, begged me to revisit but my mind has been made up a long time ago.

[I'm a Fish]

I can't say that I'm a fan. I read Kingdom Come twice. This was years ago. I look at Kingdom Come as Waid and Ross being two bitter Silver Age fanboys throwing a tantrum because superheroes and comic books in general weren't the same as they were when those two guys were growing up. So to them anything that doesn't lineup with their view was automatically wrong. I look at Kingdom Come as this gigantic middle finger towards the 90s era of comics, the folks who created them and the ones who bought them. I don't even glance at Waid's and Ross' work ever since reading Kingdom Come. To this day, I have never checked out any of their work. A lot of people pleaded, begged me to revisit but my mind has been made up a long time ago.

If that's true than Kingdom Come had the opposite effect since it arguably jumpstarted the superhero deconstruction genre.
It certainly led to how the characters were treated across the New 52.

So, oops?

[atomicskull]

If that's true than Kingdom Come had the opposite effect since it arguably jumpstarted the superhero deconstruction genre.
It certainly led to how the characters were treated across the New 52.

So, oops?

Not sure if I'm being mocked but okay. If you're defending the story, that's fine. But understand not everyone feels the same as you do. The story just didn't connect with me and THAT IS ONE HUNDRED PERCENT OKAY. I'm glad you and others got something out of it.

[I'm a Fish]

Not sure if I'm being mocked but okay. If you're defending the story, that's fine. But understand not everyone feels the same as you do. The story just didn't connect with me and THAT IS ONE HUNDRED PERCENT OKAY. I'm glad you and others got something out of it.

I'm not mocking at all, sorry if it came off that way. I'm just pointing out that the story had unintended consequences which the Waid himself admitted at one point.

If I'm mocking anyone it's the writers, if it's true that they made this story because they were salty about the 90's. There's a sense of irony if they wrote the story to show why the 90's were bad, but Kingdom Come was so popular it led to even more angsty characterizations of superheroes.
I find the story itself to be all right.

[HsssH]

If that's true than Kingdom Come had the opposite effect since it arguably jumpstarted the superhero deconstruction genre.
It certainly led to how the characters were treated across the New 52.

So, oops?

I feel like majority of DC's works that attempted to "counter the trends" have flopped in a sense that they didn't counter anything.

[I'm a Fish]

I feel like majority of DC's works that attempted to "counter the trends" have flopped in a sense that they didn't counter anything.

Probably because it wasn't so much a counter, but a critique. I think Justice is more of a counter.

Edit: But yes, by incorporating popular trends into your story, you're still using those trends, even if it's to criticize.

[The Cool Thatguy]

so the bomb was strong enough to actually kill superman?

At Ground Zero, probably.

I never liked the JSA retcon. Superman's rampage after the battle seems to be so infantile if he's had time to process everything that he's lost. To go from acceptance to murdery like that weakens the story, IMO