Kingdom Come - 25 Years Later

[Zero Hunter]

Just in case you have never seen the epilogue pages from the JSA story that gives a glimpse of the KC Earth's future.

[krazijoe]

Probably because it wasn't so much a counter, but a critique. I think Justice is more of a counter.

Edit: But yes, by incorporating popular trends into your story, you're still using those trends, even if it's to criticize.

Justice is a counter to all of us that Watched Challenge of the Super Friends as kids and thought it was AWESOME! only to realize it was WAY cheesy. Justice was less cheesy and a good memento.

[The_Last_Czarnian]

I loved it the first time I read it, and still do to this day. The immediate sequel was garbage, but the JSA story (Zero Hunter posted some scans above) was a fair shake. I have the red leatherette slipcase version of KC. Love to break it out now and then.

[Sacred Knight]

It was a really fun Elseworlds then and still remains a fun imaginary tale today. Had some characterization quibbles but again, Elseworlds. They did milk it too much though.

[John Venus]

At Ground Zero, probably.

I never liked the JSA retcon. Superman's rampage after the battle seems to be so infantile if he's had time to process everything that he's lost. To go from acceptance to murdery like that weakens the story, IMO

IIRC, he only realizes that everyone died after he got thrown back to his own timeline. I distinctly recall him returning to his world and then reacting to all the dead bodies around him.

If that's true than Kingdom Come had the opposite effect since it arguably jumpstarted the superhero deconstruction genre.
It certainly led to how the characters were treated across the New 52.

So, oops?

It didn't. Watchmen and TDK Returns did and comics were arguably heading that way at that point. Kingdom Come was meant to be a rebuke against the darkness and deconstruction hence why the Trinity starts off isolated and despondent but ends with them getting back together again, but it kick started the Silver Age nostalgia and DC's attempt to the harken back to the 'good ol' days but darker and edgier' trend that would define much of the 00's DC comics.

[DrNewGod]

I can't say that I'm a fan. I read Kingdom Come twice. This was years ago. I look at Kingdom Come as Waid and Ross being two bitter Silver Age fanboys throwing a tantrum because superheroes and comic books in general weren't the same as they were when those two guys were growing up. So to them anything that doesn't lineup with their view was automatically wrong. I look at Kingdom Come as this gigantic middle finger towards the 90s era of comics, the folks who created them and the ones who bought them. I don't even glance at Waid's and Ross' work ever since reading Kingdom Come. To this day, I have never checked out any of their work. A lot of people pleaded, begged me to revisit but my mind has been made up a long time ago.

I can see your point. At the same time, there were those that thought the direction some 1990s creators were taking comics was a middle finger to the superhero genre as it had been before, starting with Frank Miller and rolling forward.

[atomicskull]

I can see your point. At the same time, there were those that thought the direction some 1990s creators were taking comics was a middle finger to the superhero genre as it had been before, starting with Frank Miller and rolling forward.

I just don't feel like creators or fans should push what they think a superhero should be on others. Superheroes aren't cut and dry. That's why i love the medium so much.

[Agent Z]

Didn't DC try to do that in the 90's by replacing it's heroes with "cool edgy" versions of their characters and it backfired? Kingdom Come was made in response to fans wanting heroes to act like that in the 90's, except with better writing/art and a biblical overtone.

And then DC tried to do it again with New 52 by replacing their heroes with their Kingdom Come counterparts, and it backfired again.


The heroes in the story are interesting, but they wouldn't work in the long run. The story even ends with the trinity going back to their regular selves.

Edit: I'm not saying stories like this shouldn't be written, because people clearly like exploring these sides of heroes. It just seems like the edgy version doesn't have as much long term potential as their regular counterparts.

Most of the "edgy" legacies were temporary and the stories treated it as such. They were deconstructions of 90s antiheroes.

[Vordan]

I just don't feel like creators or fans should push what they think a superhero should be on others. Superheroes aren't cut and dry. That's why i love the medium so much.

Hm I’m not sure I understand. It would be one thing if Waid had attempted to force other creators to write the way he wanted but that’s not what he did. He simply put out a story that deconstructed the 90s xxtreme heroes the same way the classics got deconstructed. It’s not really any different from how Alan Moore deconstructed superheroes in Miracleman or Watchmen is it?

[Agent Z]

Kingdom Come is a well meaning but ultimately misguided. It comes across as Waid being incredibly insecure about Superman's popularity and its approach to the question of superheroes using lethal force is too binary and reliant on straw men.

It's one of the best examples of DC wasting time on a ham-fisted, overly convoluted moral screed on the "evils" of antiheroes when all they have to do is just put out lighter material.

[Jon-El]

I’d taken a brief break from comics and this was on the shelf when I finally went back. I hadn’t bought regularly for about a year. I absolutely loved it! I get some feel like it was overly critical of 90’s comics. However, I admit not loving where comics were at the time. For a while, I got my comics from a mail order service. I’d get these catalogs listing the books for the coming month and the descriptions used to surprise me. “ Ultra violent all gore issue.” “This one changes all you thought you new and a major character dies. All blood issue!” It just seemed like the violence dial was turned way up. Kingdom Come summed up some of my feelings at the time. I viewed it as a great self contained story though. I didn’t necessarily want it to influence future stories.

On the surface, it was a nostalgia fest with everything from Superman’s Fortress to imagery from the Super Friends. It’s goofy but you can look through each book and spot references to previous eras. I guess I was at a point where I was getting nostalgic about comics for the first time. I loved all that stuff! The Ross art blew me away. Much better I think than what he did on “Marvels”.

It’s just a take on the DC heroes to me. It’s similar to Dark Knight. Or an “Elseworlds” story. I’m not a regular reader anymore so I’m not familiar with how much influence the story has had. I definitely enjoyed it at the time. Along with James Robinson’s “Golden Age” it’s one of my favorite stories from the 90’s.

[atomicskull]

Hm I’m not sure I understand. It would be one thing if Waid had attempted to force other creators to write the way he wanted but that’s not what he did. He simply put out a story that deconstructed the 90s xxtreme heroes the same way the classics got deconstructed. It’s not really any different from how Alan Moore deconstructed superheroes in Miracleman or Watchmen is it?

i guess i'll just have to read it again.

[DrNewGod]

I just don't feel like creators or fans should push what they think a superhero should be on others. Superheroes aren't cut and dry. That's why i love the medium so much.

It's okay that we see it differently. Whilst I have my preference, there should be room for many different takes on the superhero.

[Lightning Rider]

I'm kind of glad that when I read it, I was too new to comics to completely understand the meta-commentary. Not that I dislike that aspect of it, but reading responses now, many if not most readers are just analyzing it through a strict lense of authorial intent. Within its own universe, I thought it was a fantastic story with strong themes and excellent art. It's not just a battle of generational ideas but an exploration of what happens when the notion of superheroes as guardians of human society has to confront the complexity of moral choices. And it's done more artfully than most stories that attempt that.

[Agent Z]

I can't say that I'm a fan. I read Kingdom Come twice. This was years ago. I look at Kingdom Come as Waid and Ross being two bitter Silver Age fanboys throwing a tantrum because superheroes and comic books in general weren't the same as they were when those two guys were growing up. So to them anything that doesn't lineup with their view was automatically wrong. I look at Kingdom Come as this gigantic middle finger towards the 90s era of comics, the folks who created them and the ones who bought them. I don't even glance at Waid's and Ross' work ever since reading Kingdom Come. To this day, I have never checked out any of their work. A lot of people pleaded, begged me to revisit but my mind has been made up a long time ago.

Kingdom Come is also one of the reasons the 90s have this undeserved reputation as the "grimdark era" which is completely inaccurate when you look at the type of comics that were produced.

Yes there was idiocy like Youngblood. There were also a great number of interesting and enjoyable comics with heroes who were no less heroic than those who came before or since. Hell, the 90s were far more optimistic an idealistic for DC than the 2000s and 2010s.