Frank Miller: "I love Superman."

[exile001]

He never came across to me as being one way or the other about the character. I think Unchained would have been way better if he was the writer, actually.

Yeah, Lois definitely needs to be a prostitute.

[XanatosVanBadass]

Didn't Miller at one point plan to write a Batman story in a similar vein to DKR? I wonder how much of that initial idea was folded into DKSA?

[Nite-Wing]

Yes we see how much he loves Superman in Dark Knight strikes again
His loss to batman has him so neutered and destroyed that he has to have deformed sex with Wonder Misandrist to even function
Then he loses to Batman again
I think Miller likes Superman but he definitely likes Batman more

[Johnny Thunders!]

Morrison's JLA definitely made it the definitive version of Batman, but the whole idea of "Batman wins with Prep Time" begins, and hasn't ended, with Miller's Dark Knight. It's a straight line from Miller's Batman to Waid's JLA run where Rhas Al' Ghul takes out the League using Batman's plans. I know Superman fans can't take it, myself being one, but Batman "posterizes" Superman. Thank God Superman finally stopped weeping every time a Crisis happens.

[Krypto's Fleas]

Has Miller ever written a Superman-centered story? I think Miller is a bit of a crazy dick and don't pay too much attention to him other than respecting Year One (though a bit overrated as a seminal Batman story...it's more Gordon than Bruce), and recognizing TDKR's impact on comics. But for as much as he's talked about, he sure isn't known for a diverse body of work. Just Daredevil and Batman.

In any case, any Miller/Supes stories out there?

[jaybay]

I'll do one better. Miller did an reddit ama interview about 2 months ago and perhaps it's more revealing (Like it needs to be. Seems obvious how he feels)

Q: Hey Frank,
How do you feel about Superman? People have an idea that you only see him like TDKR portrayed him.

A: Well, you think of the ancient gods, which is really where these characters all come from. It's really strange that a bunch of American Jews imitated a bunch of greek heroes to create the new superhero. They changed because of the times. Jack Kirby was originally Jacob Kurtzberg, Stan Lee was Stanley Zeiber, and Bob Kane (who created Batman), his real given name was Eli Katz. It was part of the anti-Semitism of the time, that people wouldn't get as noticed without all-American names, and back then that meant Anglo-Saxon. It meant names like Rip Torn, or other very Americanized names. Sometimes to the point of absurdity. And so for obvious reasons, namely American anti-semitism which have been covered up over time (most people don't know that Jack Kirby was fighting the Nazi Bundt, for instance, and when WWII came along he was one of the first to go out charging as a five foot four man with the soul of a warrior - he actually trained to become a boxer before he became a comic book artist. Yeah, he failed but he did become an excellent scout, who would go behind enemy lines). Compare him to Will Eisner, who was the same age, and Will Eisner being a much shrewder businessman and (I suspect) much less of a fanatic on the subject, he went to the military and showed them that he could draw, and had a proposal drawn on a buxom woman putting guns together. So he spent the war as a drawing boy). Keep in mind that Superman was the first of the superheroes, he even pre-dated Batman, he was created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster in Ohio, and as time went by they changed Superman accordingly. He started out as a what the Jews call a Golem, a product of the earth who would bring the leaders of warring forces face to face and make them then and there, in the trenches, face each other. And thereby diffuse a war that was happening. Along came WWII, everybody was wearing a flag, and Superman hoisted the flag.

So he completely avoids the question here but there's an revealing little tid bit when someone asks him what makes Batman so likable. He goes on about Batman's motives are put out there and how he's rough and violent and then says,

"I was also in love with the idea of a character that could not fly. The man needed a car to get around. And he got by on wits and skill alone. That's why I couldn't resist having him beat the crap out of Superman just once, i had to see that just once."

Once? No, not just once. Now I don't know too much about this but I know he had an problem with how writers portrayed Superman's relation with the gov't and instead of correcting this to make his ideal Superman he sets that up to be torn apart by Batman while our owns ideals culturally are moving in the very same direction with our relationship with the gov't. Too bad I guess? Why even use Superman for this at all? Superman isn't an solider to be used by the gov't, he doesn't accept war as an fact of life or lesser of evils, he can see beyond that. Then he's being black mailed, then he's getting beat up again. He may claim to love Superman but it's clearly an love of shitting on the character. In no way is Miller's Superman the real one but he had an pretty good idea of who that was at least in the golden age. That makes this even worse because he had the capability. He instead sought to make his twist to a classic story. That's what I don't understand. His goal was to make an adaptation that isn't true to the original story and by large isn't positive exposure.

Isn't that what any writer shouldn't be trying to achieve? Not because I want to be catered to as a comic fan, but because that’s what works in this genre. Make a Superman characterization (so generic and loose nowadays) that’ll make Siegel and Shuster proud. Make THAT your twist. Be the person who makes the Superman characterizations to end all Superman characterizations.

It's certainly his artistic right to do whatever he wants just like it is everyone elses but the harm it did to Superman's franchise is astonishing and he continued this trend in the sequels. I for one don't have the energy to crap on an guy who'll quickly die in my lifetime at this rate. The damage is done.

[Mr. Mastermind]

All-Star Batman and Robin?

ASBAR was just Miller messing around with the DC universe for the shits and giggles, not something to be taken seriously. Superman in that book is portrayed just as badly as Batman.

DK2 felt like Miller's apology for Superman's treatment in DKR, given how the "epic" Batman vs Superman fight is over after the first issue, it's revealed Superman was blackmailed by Luthor and the story is turned around by Superman coming to his senses and fighting for good.

[XanatosVanBadass]

ASBAR was just Miller messing around with the DC universe for the shits and giggles, not something to be taken seriously. Superman in that book is portrayed just as badly as Batman.

DK2 felt like Miller's apology for Superman's treatment in DKR, given how the "epic" Batman vs Superman fight is over after the first issue, it's revealed Superman was blackmailed by Luthor and the story is turned around by Superman coming to his senses and fighting for good.

I actually think DK2 reads better if you consider it a Superman story rather than a Batman one.

Hell, the villains are both Superman villains and the most prominent new character was Superman's daughter.

[LoneNecromancer]

I'll do one better. Miller did an reddit ama interview about 2 months ago and perhaps it's more revealing (Like it needs to be. Seems obvious how he feels)





So he completely avoids the question here but there's an revealing little tid bit when someone asks him what makes Batman so likable. He goes on about Batman's motives are put out there and how he's rough and violent and then says,

"I was also in love with the idea of a character that could not fly. The man needed a car to get around. And he got by on wits and skill alone. That's why I couldn't resist having him beat the crap out of Superman just once, i had to see that just once."

Once? No, not just once. Now I don't know too much about this but I know he had an problem with how writers portrayed Superman's relation with the gov't and instead of correcting this to make his ideal Superman he sets that up to be torn apart by Batman while our owns ideals culturally are moving in the very same direction with our relationship with the gov't. Too bad I guess? Why even use Superman for this at all? Superman isn't an solider to be used by the gov't, he doesn't accept war as an fact of life or lesser of evils, he can see beyond that. Then he's being black mailed, then he's getting beat up again. He may claim to love Superman but it's clearly an love of shitting on the character. In no way is Miller's Superman the real one but he had an pretty good idea of who that was at least in the golden age. That makes this even worse because he had the capability. He instead sought to make his twist to a classic story. That's what I don't understand. His goal was to make an adaptation that isn't true to the original story and by large isn't positive exposure.

Isn't that what any writer shouldn't be trying to achieve? Not because I want to be catered to as a comic fan, but because that’s what works in this genre. Make a Superman characterization (so generic and loose nowadays) that’ll make Siegel and Shuster proud. Make THAT your twist. Be the person who makes the Superman characterizations to end all Superman characterizations.

It's certainly his artistic right to do whatever he wants just like it is everyone elses but the harm it did to Superman's franchise is astonishing and he continued this trend in the sequels. I for one don't have the energy to crap on an guy who'll quickly die in my lifetime at this rate. The damage is done.

I can't really tell what the running line of logic here is, but I'm amused you wrote such a long post and then said you "don't have the energy" to crap on him. I mean, really...

[Johnny Thunders!]

His Daughter is so cold, but she seems much more magnificent than Superman. All through DKSA, I don't read Superman as in control. He's not the Man of Tomorrow, he's barely holding on. He's surviving but I don't hear the Fleisher Superman theme in my head at any point in that book. Batman beats Lex and his daughter beats Braniac if I remember correctly.

[Flash Gordon]

Well Miller has a funny way of showing it.

[jaybay]

I can't really tell what the running line of logic here is, but I'm amused you wrote such a long post and then said you "don't have the energy" to crap on him. I mean, really...

Well, no further than I already did and probably not going forward. Considering where BvS is drawing inspiration from I'm sure the opportunity will be there.

[ed2962]

I think Frank likes the idea of the original Super Man, the champion of the common man who sets things right. But he mocks the version that got popular, the all powerful being who respects authority and gets cats out of trees.

Personally, I don't think there's a problem with having Supes with the boy scout morality, but obviously Frank's more into heroes that are more "hands on" about dealing with issues.

[Punisher007]

Yeah, Frank seem drawn to more "proactive" heroes. Ones that don't just wait for bad stuff to happen and then react, but who actively try to stop it BEFORE it happens. Unfortunately, Frank tends to go WAY TOO FAR with it. People like Warren Ellis and Garth Ennis handle the "proactive" characters much better.

[Punisher007]

His Daughter is so cold, but she seems much more magnificent than Superman. All through DKSA, I don't read Superman as in control. He's not the Man of Tomorrow, he's barely holding on. He's surviving but I don't hear the Fleisher Superman theme in my head at any point in that book. Batman beats Lex and his daughter beats Braniac if I remember correctly.

The funny thing is that, for all the complaints about Batman being "glorified" over Superman, he isn't treated much better. He's depicted as being a violent, homicidal sociopath who knowlingly and willingly gets people killed, treated his old sidekick like garbage and is completely unrepentant about it, and then kills him. At least Superman is still kind of trying to be the better man, even if he's world-wearing and somewhat psychologically broken. He's not a nutty terrorist like Bats has become.