Scarlet Witch/ Wanda Maximoff Discussion (Specifically about dislike)

[Ferro]

Even if the X-Men were being promoted better, the premise of the franchise has remained stuck in the past for a while and wouldn't really be marketable these days anyway. This idea of using mutants as an allegory for civil rights might have been novel two decades ago, but given how society has changed since then and how our understanding of social justice has evolved and adapted, you can't really a story about how shooting laser beams from your eyes is the same as being gay, invariably written by a straight dude, and expect that to click with audiences in 2021.

The x-men have actualy interesting scifi and fantasy concepts, villains, exciting characters and storylines that sorta counter your opinion.

If they made the red headed step child of marvel, the avengers, who in 40 years combined have like 2 good stories, a handfull of iconic villains and were left to the background as failures until millar's Ultimates and bendis run completly shook the foundation, creating their own versions of the team thats similar in name only, in millar's case changing their personalities and team goal to near parody levels or in bendis's case, getting rid of most of the classic cast and replacing it with spider man, wolverine and the heroes for hire and any and all possible popular character that they can trow into it for a quick cover cameo, then they started to be sucessfull.

Funny how avengers had to be torn to shreds then replaced to be sucessfull.
Imagine what they will do with decades of execptional stories that the x-men have, or even basic concepts.

The x-men have been popular since the 80's, they never needed a complete makeover that ignores most of their classic history and characters or an ultimate universe version to make them relevant.
There's a reason krakoa has 12 books and the avengers have two (if you count savage) , without an inorganic editorial mandate that went ahead to nearly rewrite marvel's history to enforce the ilusion that the avengers are suddenly the center of the universe, they return to what they are, a shallow team with no identity.

while the x-men universe has praticaly endless possibilities, endless reach and a pratically endless cast of characters to use that all spark imagination and interest.

[CosmiComic]

The x-men have actualy interesting scifi and fantasy concepts, villains, exciting characters and storylines that sorta counter your opinion.

If they made the red headed step child of marvel, the avengers, who in 40 years combined have like 2 good stories, a handfull of iconic villains and were left to the background as failures until millar's Ultimates and bendis run completly shook the foundation, creating their own versions of the team thats similar in name only, in millar's case changing their personalities and team goal to near parody levels or in bendis's case, getting rid of most of the classic cast and replacing it with spider man, wolverine and the heroes for hire and any and all possible popular character that they can trow into it for a quick cover cameo, then they started to be sucessfull.

Funny how avengers had to be torn to shreds then replaced to be sucessfull.
Imagine what they will do with decades of execptional stories that the x-men have, or even basic concepts.

The x-men have been popular since the 80's, they never needed a complete makeover that ignores most of their classic history and characters or an ultimate universe version to make them relevant.
There's a reason krakoa has 12 books and the avengers have two (if you count savage) , without an inorganic editorial mandate that went ahead to nearly rewrite marvel's history to enforce the ilusion that the avengers are suddenly the center of the universe, they return to what they are, a shallow team with no identity.

while the x-men universe has praticaly endless possibilities, endless reach and a pratically endless cast of characters to use that all spark imagination and interest.

The Avengers and X-Men have alternated in popularity for years. The Avengers universe is just as big if not more so than the X-universe

[Ferro]

The Avengers and X-Men have alternated in popularity for years. The Avengers universe is just as big if not more so than the X-universe

No let's not rewrite history, no one cared about the avengers until bendis or mark millar's ultimates, and even then they weren't as popular as morrison or astonishing x-men, the pendulum started to swing when the mcu started to florish and there was a sudden enourmous focus on making the avengers the center piece of every and all marvel crossover event with the x-men left to their own devices.

It wasn't an organic swing in the comics and the avengers may be more popular now in the general public's eye but in terms of scale/depth it simply is not comparable, the lore and story of each team compared, the x-men eclipse the avengers and that's a pure fact.
Have you noticed that, now that the x-men are back on marvels full control comics also stoped pretending the avengers are the single best thing since sliced bread, it wasn't an "alternation" ,it was a mandate.

Now the first point GP popularity , well the x-men are coming to the mcu so <3

[CosmiComic]

No let's not rewrite history, no one cared about the avengers until bendis or mark millar's ultimates, and even then they weren't as popular as morrison or astonishing x-men, the pendulum started to swing when the mcu started to florish and there was a sudden enourmous focus on making the avengers the center piece of every and all marvel crossover event with the x-men left to their own devices.

It wasn't an organic swing in the comics and the avengers may be more popular now in the general public's eye but in terms of scale/depth it simply is not comparable, the lore and story of each team compared, the x-men eclipse the avengers and that's a pure fact.
Now that the x-men are back on marvels full control comics themselvs stoped pretending the avengers are the single best thing since sliced bread, it wasn't an "alternation" it was a mandate.

Now the first point GP popularity , well the x-men are coming to the mcu so <3

That's not true. The Avengers were popular in the comics long before the X-Men were. It took until the 80s for the X-comics to reach the top. However the MCU has propelled the Avengers far ahead of the X-Men in the general public. And this idea of the X-Men being deeper doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not trying to attack you, but do you have something against the Avengers?

[Agent Z]

The x-men have actualy interesting scifi and fantasy concepts, villains, exciting characters and storylines that sorta counter your opinion.

If they made the red headed step child of marvel, the avengers, who in 40 years combined have like 2 good stories, a handfull of iconic villains and were left to the background as failures until millar's Ultimates and bendis run completly shook the foundation, creating their own versions of the team thats similar in name only, in millar's case changing their personalities and team goal to near parody levels or in bendis's case, getting rid of most of the classic cast and replacing it with spider man, wolverine and the heroes for hire and any and all possible popular character that they can trow into it for a quick cover cameo, then they started to be sucessfull.

Funny how avengers had to be torn to shreds then replaced to be sucessfull.
Imagine what they will do with decades of execptional stories that the x-men have, or even basic concepts.

The x-men have been popular since the 80's, they never needed a complete makeover that ignores most of their classic history and characters or an ultimate universe version to make them relevant.
There's a reason krakoa has 12 books and the avengers have two (if you count savage) , without an inorganic editorial mandate that went ahead to nearly rewrite marvel's history to enforce the ilusion that the avengers are suddenly the center of the universe, they return to what they are, a shallow team with no identity.

while the x-men universe has praticaly endless possibilities, endless reach and a pratically endless cast of characters to use that all spark imagination and interest.

Yes they did. That was entirely the point of the All-New, All-Different team and why Magneto went from a generic supervillain who wanted to subjugate humans to being a Holocaust survivor (a backstory that only gets more and more problematic each day given the numerous arguments about how to properly integrate him into the movies and how he can still retain this origin as we get further away from WW2). The Avengers didn't go through anything anymore drastic than that and have arguably done a better job maintaining their original concepts than the X-Men.

The complaints about the Avengers' popularity being "inorganic" just strike me as sour grapes from people who don't like that the X-Men aren't the center of the universe anymore. If their potential was so limitless, they would not have spent the last five or so decades telling the same story and doing it badly. The sci-fi and fantasy concepts they have that don't pertain to the Mutant metaphor aren't inherently more interesting than anything else in Marvel or any other universe.

[Ferro]

That's not true. The Avengers were popular in the comics long before the X-Men were. It took until the 80s for the X-comics to reach the top. However the MCU has propelled the Avengers far ahead of the X-Men in the general public. And this idea of the X-Men being deeper doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not trying to attack you, but do you have something against the Avengers?

That's just not true lol, giant sized x-men brough wolverine, storm, colossus and nightcrawler and from that point forward they WERE more popular?
And they are more deep, even in the 80's comparing two or more avengers books that are barely conected to X factor+wolverine+uncanny x-men+new mutants+excalibur, every title with it's own roster with it's own unique problems, spanning decades of characters and lore?

It' s not a question of having anything agaist the avengers its just a fact ? the 3 main pillars of marvel comic's structure are spider man, fantastic four and the x-men, with the avengers barely making the scraps, thats why they werent valuable enough to be sold to movie studios.

[Ferro]

Yes they did. That was entirely the point of the All-New, All-Different team and why Magneto went from a generic supervillain who wanted to subjugate humans to being a Holocaust survivor (a backstory that only gets more and more problematic each day given the numerous arguments about how to properly integrate him into the movies and how he can still retain this origin as we get further away from WW2). The Avengers didn't go through anything anymore drastic than that and have arguably done a better job maintaining their original concepts than the X-Men.

The complaints about the Avengers' popularity being "inorganic" just strike me as sour grapes from people who don't like that the X-Men aren't the center of the universe anymore. If their potential was so limitless, they would not have spent the last five or so decades telling the same story and doing it badly. The sci-fi and fantasy concepts they have that don't pertain to the Mutant metaphor aren't inherently more interesting than anything else in Marvel or any other universe.

Angel, iceman, cyclops, jean, beast, polaris and havok have been in an main x-men team/flagship as recent as in months ago, so were many of the villains and stories of that era of the x-men referenced and cherished, the original X factor team was a reincarnation of that team, it wasn't scrubbed clean and ignored.

When was the last time the vision, wonder man, scarlet witch, tigra, mantis, black knight, cersi, krystal, the wasp, ant-man, tigra or quicksilver in an avengers team?
Hell even the flagship title?

And that is true they were in a rut, but clearly all it took was a simple push to show what the x-verse can offer with 12 books with minimal to no character/concept redudancy.

[CosmiComic]

That's just not true lol, giant sized x-men brough wolverine, storm, colossus and nightcrawler and from that point forward they WERE more popular?
And they are more deep, even in the 80's comparing two or more avengers books that are barely conected to X factor+wolverine+uncanny x-men+new mutants+excalibur, every title with it's own roster with it's own unique problems, spanning decades of characters and lore?

It' s not a question of having anything agaist the avengers its just a fact ? the 3 main pillars of marvel comic's structure are spider man, fantastic four and the x-men, with the avengers barely making the scraps, thats why they werent valuable enough to be sold to movie studios.

Angel, iceman, cyclops, jean, beast, polaris and havok have been in an main x-men team/flagship as recent as in months ago, so were many of the villains and stories of that era of the x-men referenced and cherished, the original X factor team was a reincarnation of that team, it wasn't scrubbed clean and ignored.

When was the last time the vision, wonder man, scarlet witch, tigra, mantis, black knight, cersi, krystal, the wasp, ant-man, tigra or quicksilver in an avengers team.

I think you're heavily underplaying the Avengers. Meanwhile the F4 haven't really been as relevant for years. And I don't the Giant Size X-Men made X-Men immediately popular.

Regardless, the X-Men aren't deeper than the Avengers, as least not from what I've seen. By their nature the Avengers model allows its characters to more easily branch out. Plus, as Agent Z asked, why are X-Men still doing the same extinction storylines? And what do you mean by organic?

[Agent Z]

Angel, iceman, cyclops, jean, beast, polaris and havok have been in an main x-men team/flagship as recent as in months ago, so were many of the villains and stories of that era of the x-men referenced and cherished, the original X factor team was a reincarnation of that team, it wasn't scrubbed clean and ignored.

When was the last time the vision, wonder man, scarlet witch, tigra, mantis, black knight, cersi, krystal, the wasp, ant-man, tigra or quicksilver in an avengers team?
Hell even the flagship title?

You say that as if that X-Men line-up being in the same book happens all the time.

And that is true they were in a rut, but clearly all it took was a simple push to show what the x-verse can offer with 12 books with minimal to no character/concept redudancy.

Having 12 books and having a good enough story for 12 books are different things entirely. Quality and quantity are not the same thing.

[Journey]

[CosmiComic]

I mean, I don't like arguing with other posters like this, tbh, but I also don't like seeing what I feel is incorrect information

[Ferro]

You say that as if that X-Men line-up being in the same book happens all the time.



Having 12 books and having a good enough story for 12 books are different things entirely. Quality and quantity are not the same thing.

yet I can expect to see that version of the x-men alive and well with many instances where the original 5 get together, yet I cannot find a panel where the wasp shares a conversation with the scarlet witch, because unlike the x-men that changed and grew, the avengers were inorganicaly broken apart to pieces then reutilized by bendis as he introduced his favorites and spider man/wolverine to increase the sales!

And in the avengers case betwen phoenix tornament/mommy thor macabre tango and conan the barbarian meets new york/Elektra and strange have floating intercourse, it seems quality AND quantity are lacking

[Ferro]

I think you're heavily underplaying the Avengers. Meanwhile the F4 haven't really been as relevant for years. And I don't the Giant Size X-Men made X-Men immediately popular.

Regardless, the X-Men aren't deeper than the Avengers, as least not from what I've seen. By their nature the Avengers model allows its characters to more easily branch out. Plus, as Agent Z asked, why are X-Men still doing the same extinction storylines? And what do you mean by organic?

There's a reason why the avengers weren't sold: they werent valuable enough to save marvel from bankrupcy

[CosmiComic]

yet I can expect to see that version of the x-men alive and well with many instances where the original 5 get together, yet I cannot find a panel where the wasp shares a conversation with the scarlet witch, because unlike the x-men that changed and grew, the avengers were inorganicaly broken apart to pieces then reutilized by bendis as he introduced his favorites and spider man/wolverine to increase the sales!

And in the avengers case betwen phoenix tornament/mommy thor macabre tango and conan the barbarian/Elektra and strange have floating intercourse, it seems quality AND quantity are lacking

Well, the Avengers have had a lot of poor comics. But that doesn't make the series generally inferior. And I've read Wasp and SW talking several times.

[Ferro]

Well, the Avengers have had a lot of poor comics. But that doesn't make the series generally inferior. And I've read Wasp and SW talking several times.

as yes uncanny avengers, cancelled, my point still stands you can ask the fans of those characters too, the classic avengers have been scrubbed off.