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  1. #1411
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Acccctually Saturnye brought them over. ONly the Summoner subset are half demon I think not that it matters. There's plenty of half demon heroes in the 616. And they did Save the Earth only to be sent to a hellish reality....Id be a lil salty
    Saturnyne only brought them over because Apocalypse won the right to so so. You blame Saturnyne. I blame Apocalypse. And Krakoa.

    The Summoners were just one example of the demon-mutants. There could be other — for lack of a better word — classes.

    To date, Apocalypse’s creations have been depicted as demonic, such as the various Four Horsemen. Why would his children be any different? From what we’ve seen, these kids of his maybe worse than his other creations. There’s not much heroic about them anymore, if there ever was.

    This is little different than the general issue of making allies from former foes who are still, as far as we know, enemies of humanity, like Apocalypse, Sinister, Shaw, etc. Bringing over a bunch of demons from a Hellish place to Earth really isn’t the best thing the X crew have done for humanity. This is where the mutant metaphor breaks down. Gay people or Mexican immigrants or whoever do not bring over from Hell demons that want to displace humans. Why wouldn’t governments or someone — Orchis in the comics — get the Sentinels going to protect humans? If this were real life, it might be justifiable.

    By the way, I do blame the writers and editors, not the characters. This is mostly Hickman’s work. I am holding on and enjoying the ride. I am not sure where this all is going. I just see some flaws in the argument that the mutants are oppressed now, with their own state and super powers. I think Hickman sees it as well, is using it, and it is part of his story.

    I’m really looking forward to X-Men 20 in a week, hopefully 21 not too long after that, and Planet-Sized. All the real action in Hickman’s run so far has been in the bigger special issues and “mini” series like House of X, etc. With the Gala, Duggan’s “new” team, Hickman’s new title in September or so, there’s much to look forward to reading.
    Last edited by Brian B; 05-18-2021 at 06:38 AM.

  2. #1412
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    huh? like who? for what? and people wake up, eat, work, and continue to live in countries that has laws preventing or taking away their full agency every day. Is it scarier because its 'new' Why would the average person care about 'super criminals in a foreign country thousands of miles away when they don't even trust their own government to not poison vaccines? lol
    Poison vaccines? Look, the point is that there is (or should be) so much upheaval with Krakoa that even an average person would be a little anxious about it, and those criminals are Sinister, Apocalypse, any former Brotherhood mutants or even Magneto depending on the person, etc. Pretending that they aren't there or aren't a factor isn't cute or funny, it's obtuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    And Yet...
    Go ahead and ignore the part where I said in that context.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    No guys...racism is wrong. is the KKK the protectors of Southern whites? Nazis of Aryan blood?
    This is just an incredibly overblown point that doesn't contend with what I'm saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    If its 'problematic' to not say anything to Magneto for his comments why not the same standard for the human hero's who are cool with their governments owning and using Sentinels....Did nothing about the TCloud... MDay etc. Hell America's last president, said far worse about whole countries
    We can have that conversation if you want but if this isn't whataboutism I don't know what is.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Errr What has Apocalypse done to the average layman?? As an Average layman I can say without question I wouldn't be okay with a racist hate group attacking a nation of people because of their leadership
    Geeez
    You are really stuck on this "what has Apocalypse done" thing aren't you? I haven't read every single X-book ever, I can't give you a complete rundown and it's not reasonable to demand one. We understand who Apocalypse has been since his genesis and what his goals are and even just judging him for what the X-Men have been put through makes him a monster.

    As for your latter point, no one has made that argument so you can drop that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    But if they Did it would justify Genocide.... which I guess has been the theme past few pages
    It really hasn't, you might need to go back through for a second look.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Errrr going from being cool with ur dad running concentration camps to "rebel" cause ur gf got put in one doesnt really give me that heartwarming feeling.

    WOuld the people with this modern technology just Forget who Hitler...Stalin...Pol Pot..THe Pretender are? Which mutants are worse?

    buuut what is the point of view so ripe for exploration?

    Nice Family Friendly racists?

    I didn't think you did
    These points perfectly illustrate what happens when the X-Men are looked at only through the lens of the minority metaphor - you lose any nuance, you lose any understanding beyond the simple us/them binary.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  3. #1413
    Spectacular Member Cane_danko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    Saturnyne only brought them over because Apocalypse won the right to so so. You blame Saturnyne. I blame Apocalypse. And Krakoa.

    The Summoners were just one example of the demon-mutants. There could be other — for lack of a better word — classes.

    To date, Apocalypse’s creations have been depicted as demonic, such as the various Four Horsemen. Why would his children be any different? From what we’ve seen, these kids of his maybe worse than his other creations. There’s not much heroic about them anymore, if there ever was.

    This is little different than the general issue of making allies from former foes who are still, as far as we know, enemies of humanity, like Apocalypse, Sinister, Shaw, etc. Bringing over a bunch of demons from a Hellish place to Earth really isn’t the best thing the X crew have done for humanity. This is where the mutant metaphor breaks down. Gay people or Mexican immigrants or whoever do not bring over from Hell demons that want to displace humans. Why wouldn’t governments or someone — Orchis in the comics — get the Sentinels going to protect humans? If this were real life, it might be justifiable.

    By the way, I do blame the writers and editors, not the characters. This is mostly Hickman’s work. I am holding on and enjoying the ride. I am not sure where this all is going. I just see some flaws in the argument that the mutants are oppressed now, with their own state and super powers. I think Hickman sees it as well, is using it, and it is part of his story.

    I’m really looking forward to X-Men 20 in a week, hopefully 21 not too long after that, and Planet-Sized. All the real action in Hickman’s run so far has been in the bigger special issues and “mini” series like House of X, etc. With the Gala, Duggan’s “new” team, Hickman’s new title in September or so, there’s much to look forward to reading.
    I agree with you but i will say that all the gray area is what keeps me really hype to see what is going to be the straw that breaks the mutant island’s back. I hate when villains are so one sided evil. I still cringe when i read older xmen and they call them “the brotherhood of evil mutants”. I want the villains to believe they are on the side of good. Or at least have reasons to justify what they are doing. This is a big reason i fell in love with x of swords because it turned apocalypse into this one note “darwin” villain, into a tragic hero. The mutants of arrako have none of the preconceptions of apocalypse or krakoa and i love that. It challenges the views of what krakoa is founded on. While demon mutants and such are not real world problems, a nation whose ideals are challenged and bends its own rules in order to stay in power is definitely real world. I prefer subtle writing over on the nose and that’s what hickman has done up to this point at least.

  4. #1414
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    Errr What has Apocalypse done to the average layman?? As an Average layman I can say without question I wouldn't be okay with a racist hate group attacking a nation of people because of their leadership
    How does that bit from the Simpsons go?

    "Really? Attempted murder? How is that a crime? Do they give awards for attempted chemistry?"

    Something like that. Except replace "murder" with "genocide".

  5. #1415
    Spectacular Member Cane_danko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Poison vaccines? Look, the point is that there is (or should be) so much upheaval with Krakoa that even an average person would be a little anxious about it, and those criminals are Sinister, Apocalypse, any former Brotherhood mutants or even Magneto depending on the person, etc. Pretending that they aren't there or aren't a factor isn't cute or funny, it's obtuse.



    Go ahead and ignore the part where I said in that context.



    This is just an incredibly overblown point that doesn't contend with what I'm saying.



    We can have that conversation if you want but if this isn't whataboutism I don't know what is.



    You are really stuck on this "what has Apocalypse done" thing aren't you? I haven't read every single X-book ever, I can't give you a complete rundown and it's not reasonable to demand one. We understand who Apocalypse has been since his genesis and what his goals are and even just judging him for what the X-Men have been put through makes him a monster.

    As for your latter point, no one has made that argument so you can drop that one.



    It really hasn't, you might need to go back through for a second look.



    These points perfectly illustrate what happens when the X-Men are looked at only through the lens of the minority metaphor - you lose any nuance, you lose any understanding beyond the simple us/them binary.
    I actually agree with you in that readers and even writer’s sometimes do lose nuance in these sort of abstract racial issues that the xmen deal with. That being said, i do love a good allegory and i think that is what hickman is doing. What i like about it is it is not solid in such a way as we can say “it is exactly like this real life thing” when its really just a blend of different issues when it comes to nation building. I do think there is a sort of ominous undertone, especially when it comes to the quiet council and the nation of krakoa. I can even understand why that would turn some people off as xmen have always been the good guys explicitly. I eat it up though, i won’t lie. I like seeing my heroes have their ideals challenged and turned on their head. I think at the end of the run, it will be a different beast to judge than just the pieces we see now. Even if the ending sucks though, i am enjoying the journey, more than i have with xmen in a long, long time. So, at the end of the day, i will be a hickman fan and yeah i admit that will give me a certain bias.

  6. #1416
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    I actually agree with you in that readers and even writer’s sometimes do lose nuance in these sort of abstract racial issues that the xmen deal with. That being said, i do love a good allegory and i think that is what hickman is doing. What i like about it is it is not solid in such a way as we can say “it is exactly like this real life thing” when its really just a blend of different issues when it comes to nation building. I do think there is a sort of ominous undertone, especially when it comes to the quiet council and the nation of krakoa. I can even understand why that would turn some people off as xmen have always been the good guys explicitly. I eat it up though, i won’t lie. I like seeing my heroes have their ideals challenged and turned on their head. I think at the end of the run, it will be a different beast to judge than just the pieces we see now. Even if the ending sucks though, i am enjoying the journey, more than i have with xmen in a long, long time. So, at the end of the day, i will be a hickman fan and yeah i admit that will give me a certain bias.
    Thanks, and I appreciate your point of view; absolutely this era could kill it by the end, but I think the writing's on the wall for Hickman's X-Men. Unless his next book is Uncanny X-Men, what he actually wrote of X-Men hasn't really done it in my opinion.

    Nothing wrong with having a preference/bias, especially when you're aware of it upfront.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  7. #1417
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    Saturnyne only brought them over because Apocalypse won the right to so so. You blame Saturnyne. I blame Apocalypse. And Krakoa.
    Blame them for what rescuing people?
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    The Summoners were just one example of the demon-mutants. There could be other — for lack of a better word — classes.
    Well there's only one summoner left
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    To date, Apocalypse’s creations have been depicted as demonic, such as the various Four Horsemen. Why would his children be any different? From what we’ve seen, these kids of his maybe worse than his other creations. There’s not much heroic about them anymore, if there ever was.
    Yeeeeah never said they were hero's Thing is they haven't done anything to form an opinion about. You have literal hell demons like mephisto and his kids running around thw strange academy buuut you wanna focus on Apoc's kids? Seems unfair

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    This is little different than the general issue of making allies from former foes who are still, as far as we know, enemies of humanity, like Apocalypse, Sinister, Shaw, etc. Bringing over a bunch of demons from a Hellish place to Earth really isn’t the best thing the X crew have done for humanity. This is where the mutant metaphor breaks down. Gay people or Mexican immigrants or whoever do not bring over from Hell demons that want to displace humans. Why wouldn’t governments or someone — Orchis in the comics — get the Sentinels going to protect humans? If this were real life, it might be justifiable.
    Huh? They only brought the Mutants back the only Mutant/demon hybrids in that world were summoners and they're all dead cept one You currently have Ghost Rider from Hell and have vampire Blade on the Acengers Nightcrawler is also half demon. Non of these mutants are and if they were remind me of the aggressions they've leveled against all of humanity....I'll wait

    Actually if I was one of the Arakko Mutants after learning about what has been done to the Mutants in the past I'd be prepping a preemptive strike lol


    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Poison vaccines? Look, the point is that there is (or should be) so much upheaval with Krakoa that even an average person would be a little anxious about it, and those criminals are Sinister, Apocalypse, any former Brotherhood mutants or even Magneto depending on the person, etc. Pretending that they aren't there or aren't a factor isn't cute or funny, it's obtuse.
    Lol since when does Sinister even care enough about humanity to fvck with them? Apocalypse as well (who had actually saved humanity a few times) Magneto really wanted a safe space for mutants so check and former members of the brotherhood Like who? Most if the various BoEM have been antagonist to xmen alone last one to do any real harm to humans was when she tried to kill Senator kelly foe his racist anti mutant policies later the gov hired that team





    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    We can have that conversation if you want but if this isn't whataboutism I don't know what is.
    lol dude thats all youve done
    Krakoa bears no ill will towards humans 'but what about what Magneto or Apocalypse..etc said" or . "What about the humans who.feel sad..." Youre using the silence of others at Magnetos words as evidence of there being something inherently wrong with Krakoa while ignoring the actions that caused death and destructions by the governments 'justified' to plan on wiping out mutants

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    You are really stuck on this "what has Apocalypse done" thing aren't you? I haven't read every single X-book ever, I can't give you a complete rundown and it's not reasonable to demand one. We understand who Apocalypse has been since his genesis and what his goals are and even just judging him for what the X-Men have been put through makes him a monster.
    Bruh youve said what a villain he is... what a scourge he is to humanity...i didn't ask for a complete rundown but you can't even give me one
    Here's a compliaton of his biggest Villainous acts and heroic ones
    https://www.cbr.com/xmen-times-apoca...illain-savior/
    For what he put the X-Men through? Honestly who has hurt the X-Men more Apocalypse or The Pretender??


    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    As for your latter point, no one has made that argument so you can drop that one.
    Oook I was commenting on your post about Orchis Death planet being justified by KraKoas government leaders ravidat the thought of destroying humanity yet haven't really shown any evidence of that being the case

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    These points perfectly illustrate what happens when the X-Men are looked at only through the lens of the minority metaphor - you lose any nuance, you lose any understanding beyond the simple us/them binary.
    Dude you been calling them the worst criminals in history which is just false
    #sorrynotsorry

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    How does that bit from the Simpsons go?

    "Really? Attempted murder? How is that a crime? Do they give awards for attempted chemistry?"

    Something like that. Except replace "murder" with "genocide".
    lol it falls flat when the person actually committed Genocide is on a hero team
    GrindrStone(D)

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