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  1. #526
    Extraordinary Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    And the worst part has always been the line up of like registration vs. bus murder etc. posinious gas while in inhumans they living it up, first issue black bolt in a casino. I didn't create those images.
    Even the main universe has reused the registration from Civil War to Outlawed, and a lot of that stuff was done to keep the X-Men stuck in a corner, or if allowed to come out and play only to prop up other franchises. But those are all just writing choices. They could have easily gone back to pre-hysteria days or pre-decimation days and continued on building up mutants as the next step of humanity and had society as a whole accept it. The only argument against that is "Moira" which is a fabrication purely to justify what Hickman is doing. Having mutants on an island is not going to stop them from going through the same crap unless writers stop, and if writers stop then mutants could be anywhere.

  2. #527
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    I'm confused as to why it seems impossible for the X-Men and mutant kind to both have Krakoa and still attempt to maintain Xavier's dream. Some of the points being made make it seem like the X-Men and mutant kind have no reason to be heroes to humans anymore.

    I also think it's very much possible for a writer to give the X-Men their traditional views without leading to an extinction story. If one doesn't like the current era, I don't think that means they like extinction stories either.

    To each their own. Enjoying the books and the stories one wants is the main reason to read them anyways.
    There could have been Krakoa without racial nationalism, a paradise made by mutants, a showcase for everyone, mutants and humans. A Genosha with a better air defense. Humans would be welcomed to be shown what a true ideal society, a real utopia looks like. And the Krakoans would have said: “this kind of society, we would like that the world looks like that.”
    The mutants were in position of force. They could have done that…

    This non-antagonist situation was common place when I started reading the X-men comics. There were mutants but not enough for the rest of the world to be bothered. It wasn’t really a subject, the writers’ obsession.

  3. #528
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    That's what habitats are for. some people seem absolutely obsessed with mutants having their own safe space. It is truly fascinating. Especially when no country in the world is like "Yay everybody come on in" I mean i could go to Russia i guess, but i wouldn't.

    I just can't see other than suspicion why any human would even want to go to krakoa in the MU. for the most part it has been portrayed 90% of humans want mutants registered, collared, and sentinels for their own safety. So why would they want to go to a place with the very beings they are supposedly so afraid of. Makes no sense. That's like me wanting to go stay in prison, because i want to see what the prisoners are doing.
    Last edited by jwatson; 04-17-2021 at 08:35 AM.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  4. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    Even the main universe has reused the registration from Civil War to Outlawed, and a lot of that stuff was done to keep the X-Men stuck in a corner, or if allowed to come out and play only to prop up other franchises. But those are all just writing choices. They could have easily gone back to pre-hysteria days or pre-decimation days and continued on building up mutants as the next step of humanity and had society as a whole accept it. The only argument against that is "Moira" which is a fabrication purely to justify what Hickman is doing. Having mutants on an island is not going to stop them from going through the same crap unless writers stop, and if writers stop then mutants could be anywhere.
    And it seems like they are learning. "OMG these stories don't work without mutants to oppress." That whole outlaw thing look a whole mess and a half. The only thing good about it imo is the champions. Seeing Cap and them stand up in the court wasn't impressive to me because it's like i read Civil War, i read what was happening with mutants. Where were they.

    Personally i think Moria exists just in case it didn't work out but it did. There is no incentive to make the franchise smaller when what can be branched out from it makes too much sense. Cartoons. Disney + shows. It makes it easier to not have to do scientific experiment or cosmic rays of the week.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  5. #530
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    I'm going to be honest. I'm very confused right now. What's the main point of controversy in this discussion?
    "This is starting to sound like a bad comic book plot"
    -Spider-man

    “Evil is evil...lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same."
    -Geralt of Rivia

  6. #531
    Incredible Member Outburstz's Avatar
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    It's like you people didn't even read Hox and Pox the whole thing started because Moria showed up and showed that Xaiver dream wasn't going to work. She showed him like 8-9 different lives and it all ends with mutants screwed. So it's really funny that there are still people saying
    ......but...but why are they still not wanting human and mutants dream

  7. #532
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    Because it explains why Xavier gave up, but not why every other mutant that previously believed in the dream also did. They don't know about Moira. Why'd they abandon their values?

    And if the dream was always a failure, does that mean the permanent future of the X-Men is ethnonationalism? Just a total 180?
    Last edited by gonnagiveittoya; 04-17-2021 at 08:53 AM.

  8. #533
    Incredible Member Outburstz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    I'm going to be honest. I'm very confused right now. What's the main point of controversy in this discussion?
    1 Cast is boring and didn't really live up to the campaign of really show casing different mutant communities (or diversity)

    2 Some people in this thread just don't like Krakoa/ mutants looking out for themselves instead of just being the punching bag of the MU

  9. #534
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    It's like you people didn't even read Hox and Pox the whole thing started because Moria showed up and showed that Xaiver dream wasn't going to work. She showed him like 8-9 different lives and it all ends with mutants screwed. So it's really funny that there are still people saying
    ......but...but why are they still not wanting human and mutants dream
    In all fairness, she stuck to one idea per life. If we consider the butterfly effect, almost anything could have led to the failure of her plans in those different lives. It would have been a better argument against the dream if she had tried multiple times and failed. Then again, that's just me.

    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    Because it explains why Xavier gave up, but not why every other mutant that previously believed in the dream also did. They don't know about Moira. Why'd they abandon their values?

    And if the dream was always a failure, does that mean the permanent future of the X-Men is ethnonationalism? Just a total 180?
    I mean, this seems like a fair point of criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    1 Cast is boring and didn't really live up to the campaign of really show casing different mutant communities (or diversity)

    2 Some people in this thread just don't like Krakoa/ mutants looking out for themselves instead of just being the punching bag of the MU
    Are some really upset about mutants looking out for themselves or rather how they're doing it? If it's the former, then by all means that would be a controversial view.
    Last edited by TheDeadSpace; 04-17-2021 at 09:02 AM.
    "This is starting to sound like a bad comic book plot"
    -Spider-man

    “Evil is evil...lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same."
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  10. #535
    Extraordinary Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    It's like you people didn't even read Hox and Pox the whole thing started because Moria showed up and showed that Xaiver dream wasn't going to work. She showed him like 8-9 different lives and it all ends with mutants screwed. So it's really funny that there are still people saying
    ......but...but why are they still not wanting human and mutants dream
    Nevermind the fact that most of the criticism is really on Hickman for writing that in as an excuse, and let's be clear, that is the main problem: Hickman decided to write this based on something he made up and that tone he set is what people might have a problem with.

    But, let's just ignore the truth of the matter and pretend that the MU magically creates stories that are real or something, and even if Moira believes this, even if Moira convinced Xavier to believe this, and for some reason Magneto decided to play along. The vast majority, the hundreds of thousands of mutants in the MU have no idea Moira thinks the robots are going to kill them. The mutants, X-Men, who grew up on Xaviers dreams and speeches and teachings and those inspired by him, have no idea Moira thinks robots are going to kill them.

  11. #536
    Incredible Member Outburstz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    Because it explains why Xavier gave up, but not why every other mutant that previously believed in the dream also did. They don't know about Moira. Why'd they abandon their values?

    And if the dream was always a failure, does that mean the permanent future of the X-Men is ethnonationalism? Just a total 180?
    A) not every mutant is living on Krakoa

    B) Mutants are free to go and come as they want. There is no choice between the two. Krakoa is a place for mutant to be safe and is protected by fellow mutants

    C) Villains who have been enemies of different countries are given a free chance to start over with Krakoa no strings attached instead of being on the run and fighting other mutants

  12. #537
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    Does that explain why they installed a Nazi as a head of their government and most of the main characters are basically fine with it?

  13. #538
    Incredible Member Outburstz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    Does that explain why they installed a Nazi as a head of their government and most of the main characters are basically fine with it?
    Clean slate for all mutants. Not a clean slate for mutants you don't like. Not to mention Mr Sinister is one of the main reasons why mutants are being brought back to life.

  14. #539
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    That doesn't mean he needs to be in charge of the government. Especially since everyone is so OOC in being okay with it. The Avengers get treated worse than Apocalypse or Sinister now? It almost feels at some points the X-Men now perceive humanity as the enemy.

  15. #540
    Astonishing Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    That doesn't mean he needs to be in charge of the government.
    Sinister isn't even a mutant, he just edited his DNA to put the X gene

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