What do you think of Hickmans X-Men so far, still Interested or Not ??

[Lucyinthesky]

It's not about the person for me, I am just heavily against the overuse of telepathy, as it's always invasive and imposing regardless of that. If ever there was an ability that needed regulation of some kind, it's that.

I see your point and I agree definitely telepathy is one of the harder powers to regulate but also tricky, especially for Krakoa to do so because all of them are supposed to be free to use their powers so it´s an interesting debate to have how good is free use of powers vs the well being of everybody else. They did good to give a choice to Proteus, Empante, Krakoa and Selene so their need to absord vital energy didn´t mean the death of the person but it´s harder to make the same agument about telepathy needing to be regulated, especially when Charles is their leader so this brings a good argument for the characters.

I gave Jean some points because adult Jean unlike teenager Jean who was as bad or worse than Emma at this, often uses her words before her powers and she did a good job helping Jessica Jones after being a prisoner of the purple man while Emma and Charles often choose to use their powers, make an interpretation and then explain it to their patient which doesn´t really help in the end because the patient needs to come to their own conclusions and their own pace towards healing imo this is why I think despite them learning of human psycology in canon they have not really become experts at it.

I think this even affects their interactions with other mutants, for example, despite knowing both Charles and Emma personally and being aware they could help with his mental issues he had very bad experiences with them using his memories and his emotions agaist him so instead of going to them Magneto choose Xorn II to help him when he isn´t a telepath or a psycologist but knows how to hear and isn´t afraid to ask questions so imo I could see him deciding Krakoa as a whole may be in need of this kind of help with someone dedicated to it, after all he used to work in a mental clinic and must know when it´s neccesary to have one, especially when we are talking about mental health for a group of super poweful people with mental sickness in mutants being the one thing their medicine can´t cure.

Another character I could see getting behind this is Scott himself after seeing the problems Alex is having with trying to overcome his inversion and his story with Wasp and their daughter and he also has reasons to distrust Charles when it comes to mental health after his bad experience with Vulcan´t group and him erasing those memories from his mind.

[Anthony Shaw]

Thanks for providing these classic X-men pages. It certainly paints a very grim picture of the world in the marvel comics, at least the X-men side. One much more grimmer than just the constant super villain attacks, because at least those can considered extreme situations by outside reality characters and groups, while these are horrible actions performed by a group which is supposed to mirror something from our reality.
Something the (original US) readers are supposed to trust (albeit not blindly) and have a hand in shaping. The US government.

And that makes it much worse than your run of the mil super villains or extremist groups doing it, because with them you have a balance on both sides of the super powered vs. unpowered spectrum and there is the classic super hero comic willing suspencion of disbelief going on to accept it happening in a mirror of our world.
Also all heros can take actions against them.

But when it's the US government doing these things, it feels much more closer to reality and the hands of non-mutant heros are tied to a degree because they can't openly move against their own government so easily (though the real reason is because of super heros can't constantly interfer in each others stories).

And to make matters worse, the government hostility can only ever come from one side, because mutant nations by the nature of these comics can't exist for long, because unlike the US government, they don't exist in the real world and it's our world reflecting into the super hero comics primarily and defining the status quo.
So no constant stories of mutant governments or officials hunting down normal humans in their own borders or scenes of human rights abuse by them. No that can only ever come from one side.

I guess that's why these stories hit so hard, because they feel too close to home at least thematically. So it's no suprise someone could get the image that hostility primarily comes from the normal human side, because super villains aren't real, governments, hate groups and powerfull corperations are and they tend to be made of non-mutant folks in these comics.

So a mutant super villain killing thousands of people gets disregarded after a while, because it's not reflective of reality, but a government deploying heavy weapons against their own citizen, we have all seen that on TV either currently or historicaly. So those scenes hit harder.

Though personal opinion. That's why i seriously dislike the big purple sentinels in the X-men. Because, as i once mentioned in another topic, they break my willing suspension of disbelief even in a world of super heros, super technology and magic.

Not as general concept, but how they are used and by whom.

Because those aren't machines created by aliens or super villains trying to TAKE OVER THE WORLD or governments to battle giant Kaiju. They are made to hunt human sized people with weapons that could and WILL level entire city blocks, deployed on US soil, to hunt US citizen and they only ever do that.

The US government in this fictional example has access to giant AI controlled heavily armored walking warmachine armed with energy weapons and they only ever deploy them against a small group of people? That makes no sense.

These things should by all accounts have triggered a massive arms race between the various power blocks and they would have been seen deployed in middle east and other regions of conflicts the USA got involved in. Spies would have raced to get the plans for them or governments would have bought them from Trask and build their own.
Not to hunt mutants but to arm their militaries with them. Because this is a super hero piece of technology, which the writers allowed to end in the hands of real world governments and shown getting mass produced.

The Genosha destroying Sentinel alone should have caused a worldwide hysteria and investigation akin to a terrorist organization firing an orbital railgun loaded with fusion warheads on Johannesburg because they were bummed the apartheid government got dissolved.

So it's not like Iron Man's Armory Wars, where the government had a few "prototype" power armor systems, which could be reasoned away as costing a fortune to produce in greater number. No. Sentinels can apparently be produced in massive numbers and the tax payers don't complain?

I'm not reasoning against the visual impact the big purple Sentinels provided to the comics and cartoons of the X-men comic. But the manner in which they were introduced and keep being used just is annoying me.

Especialy because shadowy minority hunting cyborgs/androids make a lot more sense when they are relative human sized like the Prime Sentinels.

Also i think a more reasonable strategy by the US government would have been to keep forming their own mutant teams, filled with people loyal to the state, as controll agencies, which could clash with the X-men in a "controll vs. freedom" thematic.

To me, I can easily equate Sentinels to racist police. You saw the image of Lorna Dane being assaulted in her own home. Hank & Bobby were attacked in Scott's apartment. In real life, we had the murder of Breonna Taylor. In my life, I had my own horror stories involving police nonsense. No one deserves being threatened by an authority figure when they have done nothing wrong, but look a certain way, or belong to a particular group. To me, that is what the Sentinels represent.

These panels are still relevant today.



Recent real life scapegoats include Muslims, immigrants, and AAPI. We had a US President openly target, and demonize people. I consider a lot of these US senators as supervillains. The Captain America scans below involved a story where a Nixon-like political figure used the mass media to manipulate the public, and target mutants.

We can enjoy all the team-ups the writers can think up. I prefer more team-ups. Just like in real life, evil people will always seek to seize power, and use it to abuse others. It really is a never-ending battle.

[BroHomo]

To me, I can easily equate Sentinels to racist police. You saw the image of Lorna Dane being assaulted in her own home. Hank & Bobby were attacked in Scott's apartment. In real life, we had the murder of Breonna Taylor. In my life, I had my own horror stories involving police nonsense. No one deserves being threatened by an authority figure when they have done nothing wrong, but look a certain way, or belong to a particular group. To me, that is what the Sentinels represent.

These panels are still relevant today.



Recent real life scapegoats include Muslims, immigrants, and AAPI. We had a US President openly target, and demonize people. I consider a lot of these US senators as supervillains. The Captain America scans below involved a story where a Nixon-like political figure used the mass media to manipulate the public, and target mutants.

We can enjoy all the team-ups the writers can think up. I prefer more team-ups. Just like in real life, evil people will always seek to seize power, and use it to abuse others. It really is a never-ending battle.

Dude. Nailed it!

[Houseofhick]

I meean their anger would be justified...but no not really mad per se... Mutants lashing out should be expected tho Do you also blame a minority group because there's racists who hate them?

Just so we are crystal clear............. You think their anger would be justified to the rest of humanity?
If you are going to use "racists" then I would also say certain mutants could be labeled that too.


Yeah but it's not tho And technically Sinister wasn't a Mutant when he ordered the massacre

I see Sinister with his seat at the table and his own group of anti heroes....... How many Morlocks died for this?

i think we see enough lol

I think we see a fair share

Riot at Xavier's? The other story arcs main villains were John Sublime...his U-Men... Cassandra Nova...none of them Mutants

Again, how many of those stories were mutants against the rest of humanity? You can include Planet X too

I don't think the general team of Mutants know about the DoFP nightmare.i meeean humanity can stop producing them that'll work.

That is not going to happen though is it? You either work together for a better world or face a nightmare future.
Let's not forget that the Hellfire club had an involvement with sentinels.
I think mutants and the rest of humanity know exactly what the sentinels will do because it was shown on TV in Uncanny X-Men 14(1965)

[Grunty]

To me, I can easily equate Sentinels to racist police. You saw the image of Lorna Dane being assaulted in her own home. Hank & Bobby were attacked in Scott's apartment. In real life, we had the murder of Breonna Taylor. In my life, I had my own horror stories involving police nonsense. No one deserves being threatened by an authority figure when they have done nothing wrong, but look a certain way, or belong to a particular group. To me, that is what the Sentinels represent.

These panels are still relevant today.

I don't deny the visual impact and allegorical nature of the Sentinels towards real life events. It's just the concept of giant killer robots used openly by a government on a minority and that repeatedly, without seemingly any kind public outrage, demonstrations, or international complaints which makes me annoyed at the giant Sentinel concept as it is used constantly.

Because these aren't policemen just holding someone up because they found them suspicious for how they looked, or people in riot gear beating down protesters (pro-mutant rallies never seem to exist much compared to anti-mutant ones), or assault teams randomly storming someones home.
This is like the US government deploying A-10 fighters and experimental giant tanks in their cities against singular people (not even mass protest, singular individuals) and the public is presented as just shrugging at it with indifference?

It's an escalation based on the super hero nature of these comics, but rooted too much in real life issues, that i find it too over the top for repeated use.

Yes a giant evil robot can be a stand in for an oppressive government. Not arguing against the symbolism. But i personaly find it also deludes the true sinister nature of what the allegory reflects.

Like i said i find the Prime Sentinels, especialy with their more concealed presence, a much more fitting modern allegory of the problems reflected. But after Operation Zero Tolerance they were quickly swept under the rug (except for Karima Shapandar who was now randomly made a Sentinel again and evil) and the big stupid looking versions were used instead again.

Also that pannel is still relevant today i agree.
But what i find harms it, is not only that writers afterwards made Trask's sacrifice meaningless, but also escalated the situation more and more, without adding additional or necessary complexity.

And then there is the hopeless nature of using these tools in exactly this form constantly in the same way.
All hope caused by the super heros stopping them and saving mankind from the stupidly programmed killer robots, feels lost because the public is shown as not caring about it at all (or even cheering the evil opressive robots) and it has become a cycle that these things just come back or get even more extreme.

And as mentioned, because they are inspired by oppressive government actions and not the purely fictional super villainy, they hit a lot more harder.

While it can feel like public outrage and protests for betterment never achieve lasting consequences, people still go on the streets across the globe in the hope it can, they give the sense that there CAN be something done for the better. But in case of mutants in the X-men comics. They don't appear to exist. Only anti-mutant protest seems to be allowed to be presented. Only the image that entire world is somehow collectively against this one particular group of people.

So especialy over the last 20 years, these comics have radiated a constant hopelessness and i find the repeated use of the classic giant sentinels, without any counterweight in opposition towards their usage, to be emblematic of the issue going on with this comic franchise at large.
Not helped by Hickman having created a scenario now in which it's seemingly implied that the danger of the Sentinels can never be overcome unless humanity with the exception of mutants, are entirely pacified or removed.

So yeah, i just really dislike how the classic Sentinels look and are repeated used, not the original stories they were used for and the meaning of them.

We can enjoy all the team-ups the writers can think up. I prefer more team-ups. Just like in real life, evil people will always seek to seize power, and use it to abuse others. It really is a never-ending battle.

I agree, but when it's presented as just a constant downward spiral without any ups in between or only small ups to show even deeper downs afterwards, it can become quite depressing.

And it becomes worse when writers try to highlight this narrative situation in story.

[jwatson]

I'm starting to get so excited. Now that the Dawn is over and hickman has laid out so many worlds, and we have gotten through the establishment stage im expecting this is where hickman and co let loose and the stories start to focus outward. I was looking at some of the issues and x of swords and when hickman's xmen hit the ground and those places he set up starts to be explored in other books. It feels like we are in for some amazing stuff.

[Anthony Shaw]

I don't deny the visual impact and allegorical nature of the Sentinels towards real life events. It's just the concept of giant killer robots used openly by a government on a minority and that repeatedly, without seemingly any kind public outrage, demonstrations, or international complaints which makes me annoyed at the giant Sentinel concept as it is used constantly.

Because these aren't policemen just holding someone up because they found them suspicious for how they looked, or people in riot gear beating down protesters (pro-mutant rallies never seem to exist much compared to anti-mutant ones), or assault teams randomly storming someones home.
This is like the US government deploying A-10 fighters and experimental giant tanks in their cities against singular people (not even mass protest, singular individuals) and the public is presented as just shrugging at it with indifference?

It's an escalation based on the super hero nature of these comics, but rooted too much in real life issues, that i find it too over the top for repeated use.

Yes a giant evil robot can be a stand in for an oppressive government. Not arguing against the symbolism. But i personaly find it also deludes the true sinister nature of what the allegory reflects.

Like i said i find the Prime Sentinels, especialy with their more concealed presence, a much more fitting modern allegory of the problems reflected. But after Operation Zero Tolerance they were quickly swept under the rug (except for Karima Shapandar who was now randomly made a Sentinel again and evil) and the big stupid looking versions were used instead again.

Also that pannel is still relevant today i agree.
But what i find harms it, is not only that writers afterwards made Trask's sacrifice meaningless, but also escalated the situation more and more, without adding additional or necessary complexity.

And then there is the hopeless nature of using these tools in exactly this form constantly in the same way.
All hope caused by the super heros stopping them and saving mankind from the stupidly programmed killer robots, feels lost because the public is shown as not caring about it at all (or even cheering the evil opressive robots) and it has become a cycle that these things just come back or get even more extreme.

And as mentioned, because they are inspired by oppressive government actions and not the purely fictional super villainy, they hit a lot more harder.

While it can feel like public outrage and protests for betterment never achieve lasting consequences, people still go on the streets across the globe in the hope it can, they give the sense that there CAN be something done for the better. But in case of mutants in the X-men comics. They don't appear to exist. Only anti-mutant protest seems to be allowed to be presented. Only the image that entire world is somehow collectively against this one particular group of people.

So especialy over the last 20 years, these comics have radiated a constant hopelessness and i find the repeated use of the classic giant sentinels, without any counterweight in opposition towards their usage, to be emblematic of the issue going on with this comic franchise at large.
Not helped by Hickman having created a scenario now in which it's seemingly implied that the danger of the Sentinels can never be overcome unless humanity with the exception of mutants, are entirely pacified or removed.

So yeah, i just really dislike how the classic Sentinels look and are repeated used, not the original stories they were used for and the meaning of them.



I agree, but when it's presented as just a constant downward spiral without any ups in between or only small ups to show even deeper downs afterwards, it can become quite depressing.

And it becomes worse when writers try to highlight this narrative situation in story.

In regards to the Sentinels traditional size.....you gotta just say....science fiction. Part of it rationale is to intimidate their targets, like any oversized bullies. Rarely will I ever question a Kirby design. As you said, Sentinel designs have varied. I understand your dislike of the classic design.

My first Sentinel story was from a Hulk annual as a small child. The design creeped me out. Good thing the Hulk helped out.





As far as Trask's sacrifice, it's a tragedy. He will forever be known as a martyr for humanity. The ultimate tragedy is that mutants are humans. The US government still has Guantanamo Bay. We know what Trump was doing to immigrant children coming from the south seeking asylum. We live in a dark world, so it makes sense some comics will reflect that (hopefully some are written well).

Spider-Man has done a lot of good, but his deeds have been drowned out by bad press. Even getting public accolades by Captain America & the FF, he is still viewed as suspect. Thankfully, Spidey is an individual. The actions of a few bad mutants gets attributed to their whole population. Doom does dirt, but no one blames all monarchs, or leaders from Europe.

I do agree that more x-writers should display & develop more public mutant advocates. Editors need to remember that it's called the Marvel Universe. The MCU is so popular with non-comic fans because they see different characters interacting. Looking back now, it's hilarious how the Hulk just wrecked Master Mold.

While I like the current era, my favorite era was back in the late 80s to early 90s post Fall of the Mutants. I'm mostly an O5 fan (as you can tell by my scans), so I like how they lived publicly in Ship. The O5 were like the mutant Fantastic Four. Ship was like the mutant answer to the Baxter Building. The outback X-Men were more covert.

I think Scott & Jean reforming the X-Men could signal more of a return to traditional super heroics while still keeping the current Krakoa setting.

[Malachi]

In regards to the Sentinels traditional size.....you gotta just say....science fiction. Part of it rationale is to intimidate their targets, like any oversized bullies. Rarely will I ever question a Kirby design. As you said, Sentinel designs have varied. I understand your dislike of the classic design.

My first Sentinel story was from a Hulk annual as a small child. The design creeped me out. Good thing the Hulk helped out.

This was my first Master Mold story. Even though I collected Marvel comics as a kid I had very few stories who actually featured sentinels. It influenced my view on sentinels to the degree that I don't see them as a large threat in the MU. More of a relic of the past.

From reading a lot of Hulk stories in the past one other idea has remained that is apllicable to the X-men. The Hulk was a misstake. An odd experiment that weren't reproducable. That was his power. He went against all these other foes that tried to beat him but they couldn't attain what he had gotten by chance. His the angrier I get the stronger I get was just one part of this.
For me the X-men are the same. It's all about chance. Some mutants are more powerful then others. Some get mutations that hurt them. Some are very low level or not useful. Witch makes it about individuals too. You don't want to face against Magneto because he is one of a kind. Chimeras are not that interesting becasue they lack the sense of danger. Magneto can't be duplicated. He's a product of chance.

So for me any story that goes against this basic equation of: chance>created, doesn't really work. It's just ingrained in me from all those marvel comics.

[Anthony Shaw]

This was my first Master Mold story. Even though I collected Marvel comics as a kid I had very few stories who actually featured sentinels. It influenced my view on sentinels to the degree that I don't see them as a large threat in the MU. More of a relic of the past.

From reading a lot of Hulk stories in the past one other idea has remained that is apllicable to the X-men. The Hulk was a misstake. An odd experiment that weren't reproducable. That was his power. He went against all these other foes that tried to beat him but they couldn't attain what he had gotten by chance. His the angrier I get the stronger I get was just one part of this.
For me the X-men are the same. It's all about chance. Some mutants are more powerful then others. Some get mutations that hurt them. Some are very low level or not useful. Witch makes it about individuals too. You don't want to face against Magneto because he is one of a kind. Chimeras are not that interesting becasue they lack the sense of danger. Magneto can't be duplicated. He's a product of chance.

So for me any story that goes against this basic equation of: chance>created, doesn't really work. It's just ingrained in me from all those marvel comics.

I recall being afraid for Angel, and Iceman. I read the annual when Iceman was a Spider-friend on TV. Seeing Bobby totally defeated, and Angel flying for his life to point of exhaustion stuck with me. Due to the Hulk having no strength limit, I rarely find him interesting. I had more empathy for Doc Samson in that story, lol.

Every fan is gonna project some personal feeling into the heroes, and villains they read about.

[cam18]

I wish some of my favorites were treated better but overall most of it has me still interested much moreso then the decimation era where I stopped reading completely at one point and only peaked in every once and blue moon....not a fan of flamboyant Sinister either prefer the more menacing one to be honest...but overall it has my interest.

[useridgoeshere]

It's not about the person for me, I am just heavily against the overuse of telepathy, as it's always invasive and imposing regardless of that. If ever there was an ability that needed regulation of some kind, it's that.

I disagree. I'm not taking about mind control or illusions or whatever, just basic mind reading. I don't close my eyes when I meet a blind person or plug my ears when interacting with a deaf person. I don't see why eavesdropping with our ears is different than eavesdropping with our minds. Characters use enhanced senses all the time. I don't think telepathy is any different. Telepathy is basically a sixth sense that is natural to the individual. And it's also a pretty worthless power since every two-bit punk can seem to block it any time the plot requires it.

[Zelena]

I disagree. I'm not taking about mind control or illusions or whatever, just basic mind reading. I don't close my eyes when I meet a blind person or plug my ears when interacting with a deaf person. I don't see why eavesdropping with our ears is different than eavesdropping with our minds. Characters use enhanced senses all the time. I don't think telepathy is any different. Telepathy is basically a sixth sense that is natural to the individual. And it's also a pretty worthless power since every two-bit punk can seem to block it any time the plot requires it.

Even if it’s natural for telepaths to read minds and they must make an effort not to do it, the problem is how it is received by people around them. Don’t you have a secret garden? Do you really want to be so transparent, so vulnerable?
All right, telepathy is blocked when the plot needs it but fundamentally, it’s an ability you don’t have defenses against. Did the telepath use his/her powers… or did he/she not? How can you be sure? It makes all telepaths suspect.

The fact that the telepaths are accepted so easily by the other mutants is for me a plot hole: inside the X-men team, Jean and Betsy are known and trusted but outside…?

[Malachi]

Let’s just state something.

There are at least two standard ways to look at this.

Are you happy with this era compared to the general quality of these last x years.

Are you happy with this era compared to what it could/should be.

When people are talking about how they love it and then bring up Rosenberg, Bendis or other generally considered lackluster eras then I think most of us have a lot we think are great.

That doesn’t mean that Marvel is using this moment as they should. There is a danger when both bringing out the big drum and then stating that you are using it. We hold it to a higher standard. If this fails then readers lose faith in Marvel. No longer is the option: “well what if they brought out the big guns “ left. We know how it looks when Marvel is trying now.

So yes Hickman is being measured to a higher standard. He should be. He has been given everything to succeed. That doesn’t mean that people don’t appreciate the good things. They are just focusing on other parts because, but not only, the potential is so much bigger.

[Hizashi]

I disagree. I'm not taking about mind control or illusions or whatever, just basic mind reading. I don't close my eyes when I meet a blind person or plug my ears when interacting with a deaf person. I don't see why eavesdropping with our ears is different than eavesdropping with our minds. Characters use enhanced senses all the time. I don't think telepathy is any different. Telepathy is basically a sixth sense that is natural to the individual. And it's also a pretty worthless power since every two-bit punk can seem to block it any time the plot requires it.

How common is it for minor characters to ignore telepathy though, characters that shouldn't logically have been able to? Is that true or just your perception of it? Honest question.

I don't think your analogy stands either, because blindness and deafness closes a sense off from that person while telepathy gives them an extra one. I agree there's an imbalance between a blind/deaf person and a person who isn't, but that imbalance pales when compared to the one between a telepath and a non-telepath. I don't think it's possible to trust a telepath not to abuse their power, even just a little, since "oops I overheard your thoughts because you were thinking too loud sorry" has become a joke/trope.

[Hizashi]

Even if it’s natural for telepaths to read minds and they must make an effort not to do it, the problem is how it is received by people around them. Don’t you have a secret garden? Do you really want to be so transparent, so vulnerable?
All right, telepathy is blocked when the plot needs it but fundamentally, it’s an ability you don’t have defenses against. Did the telepath use his/her powers… or did he/she not? How can you be sure? It makes all telepaths suspect.

The fact that the telepaths are accepted so easily by the other mutants is for me a plot hole: inside the X-men team, Jean and Betsy are known and trusted but outside…?

Yes, exactly, we are of one mind. It's so obvious that I'm shocked it doesn't get addressed.