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  1. #1381
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I donīt think anyone who wants to solve things killing off the general population of the other side can be called the "good guys" no matter if they are human, mutant, kree, skrull etc. thatīs my one pet peeve so no I donīt see Orchis as "protectors" or "good guys at all" that said as antagonist they have been quite passive but well maybe that will be addressed in the future.

    but I agree so far X-writers have done a good job keeping us wondering if the X-villains will get up to something or if Orchis will reveal itīs hand so far I think they have done a good job showing reasons why some of them like Shaw, Apocalypse, Mystique, Selene, Mastermind would like to keep the status quo on krakoa but by doing so they have left behind the X-men part of the story, with the exception of Wolverine, so now that we will get a new X-men team we will get more of the main X-men povīs of things.

    So far I think the writers have done a good job showing how the mere existence of Krakoa practically allows a space for redemption or at least a cease of fire between mutankind and humanity and that on itself is a good thing and still the main tension about what they will do in the future is still there but also a possibility for change.

    In Magnetoīs case is interesting because this is pretty much his dream come truth so heīs 100% doing the best he can to hold it together between all mutant groups and the biggest irony would be, if the trial is a clue, if heīs the reason why it gets an schism and still I see him so convinced this is the best way to solve everything, that heīs the kind of character who would rather go down with the ship than leave it, so I am quite curious what justification will be there for him to rock the boat because it must be pretty stron and I believe it involves the well being of mutants on Krakoa.
    I see what you mean, but what I'm saying is to Brian B's point that it's that wiggle room that allows Orchis and others like them the leeway they need to push further and further. The average layman will see that Krakoan leadership includes Apocalypse and won't push back as much when Orchis goes too far.
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  2. #1382
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    I see your point but the problem is that even without Orchis from mutants pov they already went to far for many years if not with the sentinels, then with the detention camps or the slavery so Orchis for them is just one more group of the bunch and for humanity itīs just bussines as usual, itīs not a case of them agreeing with Orchis in going to far because of Apocalypse, they are in a situation which they already have gone too far so often that Krakoa became the answer for mutants, itīs the result of that, not the other way around.

    I personally would find more interesting than Orchis, a group of humans who want or seek the acceptance or the trust of mutants again by looking to stablish a connection with Krakoa as a nation or individual mutants with some mutants accepting the offer, a kind of human version of the X-men if you want, I think thereīs space for that story to be told too and it would be a nice middle ground for the polarization between human and mutants. That kind of group I could a see as "good guys" from humanityīs side.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 05-17-2021 at 12:00 PM.
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  3. #1383
    Mighty Member Brian B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    As I think this is a joke but am not quite 100% sure, I’ll keep it short and sweet. Cable has psychic abilities, specifically telepathy and telekinesis, though those powers are impacted by the techno-organic virus he was infected with as a baby. As such, at various times his powers have ranged from virtually non-existent to “god mode” (omega level) based on what’s going on with the virus in his system (i.e., when it’s active and/or flaring up, his powers are nerfed; when it’s inactive/in remission, his power levels are amped up).

    His default ever since the early 90s has been basically low level TP and TK, though, augmented by those “big, giant guns” and now a “big ass sword.”
    I was joking, but as your post makes perfectly clear, they have never consistently portrayed Cable’s power. Indeed, Cable’s only consistent and primary power, since Rob Liefeld drew him and created him, is big, giant guns.

  4. #1384
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    Yeah, that’s fair. The constant merry-go-round re: his powers, coming and going and being altered (usually accompanying some change in the T-O virus’ status in his system) is tiresome. I’d like to see them move away from that for a good long while and leave it consistent. This would be like Wolverine getting his adamantium ripped out every few years and having bone claws... until someone gives him his adamantium back... until he loses the metal again somehow. Ha.

    But IMO the default “low level TP and TK” augmented by weapons and fighting skills is the best Cable.

    Also, I’ll add that not even “big, giant guns” have been constant for him, as he moved away from them for a period in the 90s when he used his psimitar. And more recently has preferred using his big, giant sword.

  5. #1385
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Exactatiously.

    Orchis, which was already in the works but dormant, came on-line in response to Krakoa Mutant Island coming into being.
    And rather than wait to see just how much of a "threat" the new "uppity" Nation might become they booted up their Mother Mold with full prejudice.
    So far...other than the rescue actions taken against those countries who are wrongfully incarcerating mutants, the Krakoan mutants have been quite reactionary to the world's "hate and fear" response to their presence.
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  6. #1386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Exactatiously.

    Orchis, which was already in the works but dormant, came on-line in response to Krakoa Mutant Island coming into being.
    And rather than wait to see just how much of a "threat" the new "uppity" Nation might become they booted up their Mother Mold with full prejudice.
    So far...other than the rescue actions taken against those countries who are wrongfully incarcerating mutants, the Krakoan mutants have been quite reactionary to the world's "hate and fear" response to their presence.
    I don't care who is good or bad (and there is no argument that Orchis is not way more than questionable), but Orchis started things going because of something they know Xavier is up to that is putting things about 15 years (I think) ahead of what they anticipated. I feel there is a bit of cold war style stuff going on here to make it a better story than worrying about who gets to be uppity or whatever.

  7. #1387
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I see your point but the problem is that even without Orchis from mutants pov they already went to far for many years if not with the sentinels, then with the detention camps or the slavery so Orchis for them is just one more group of the bunch and for humanity itīs just bussines as usual, itīs not a case of them agreeing with Orchis in going to far because of Apocalypse, they are in a situation which they already have gone too far so often that Krakoa became the answer for mutants, itīs the result of that, not the other way around.

    I personally would find more interesting than Orchis, a group of humans who want or seek the acceptance or the trust of mutants again by looking to stablish a connection with Krakoa as a nation or individual mutants with some mutants accepting the offer, a kind of human version of the X-men if you want, I think thereīs space for that story to be told too and it would be a nice middle ground for the polarization between human and mutants. That kind of group I could a see as "good guys" from humanityīs side.
    And that's true from the perspective mutants, I'm just looking at it from the perspective of the average person who woke up one day and there was suddenly an entire new world power chaired by some of the worst criminals in human history. There's definitely some great potential narrative payoff, maybe I'll be singing praises for this run by the end.

    I would love for your latter idea to make it, I've been wanting something like that for a long time. The protagonists, as I've conceptualized it, would include a pair of siblings, one human and one mutant. I know we've had that before but the push and pull of the human vs mutant conflict doesn't seem to play a big role.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Exactatiously.

    Orchis, which was already in the works but dormant, came on-line in response to Krakoa Mutant Island coming into being.
    And rather than wait to see just how much of a "threat" the new "uppity" Nation might become they booted up their Mother Mold with full prejudice.
    So far...other than the rescue actions taken against those countries who are wrongfully incarcerating mutants, the Krakoan mutants have been quite reactionary to the world's "hate and fear" response to their presence.
    Krakoa is the first time mutantkind has largely gathered in this way, I think Orchis as a preventive or protective measure could arguably be justified. The use of a Mother Mold is indefensible, that's true.
    Does it need doing?
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  8. #1388
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    And that's true from the perspective mutants, I'm just looking at it from the perspective of the average person who woke up one day and there was suddenly an entire new world power chaired by some of the worst criminals in human history. There's definitely some great potential narrative payoff, maybe I'll be singing praises for this run by the end.
    I donīt think the average person knows who Apocalypse, Selene, Sinister, et all even are as all of them had their hidden identities and itīs also why Xavier is the main face for the country and Magneto to a lesser extend but at least he has been seen helping out the X-men or the Avengers or help take down Hydra from time to time so imo Orchis itself is a reaction from the world elites who are not ok with mutants being organized as a nation and taking over in a very peaceful way that doesnīt allow them to justify an open attack.

    I would love for your latter idea to make it, I've been wanting something like that for a long time. The protagonists, as I've conceptualized it, would include a pair of siblings, one human and one mutant. I know we've had that before but the push and pull of the human vs mutant conflict doesn't seem to play a big role.
    Yes it would be a nice way to include a third faction that makes sense because at the end of the day most mutants are born from human families who loved them or love them. In fact it was never explained why they would allow their child to be taken to camps. Old Genosha had the story of a couple, one a mutant and one a human who was the Son of the one in charge to the mutates concentration camps so he used his father influence to save his girlfriend and later became a rebel in favor of mutants so yes, thereīs room for more stories like that one.



    Krakoa is the first time mutantkind has largely gathered in this way, I think Orchis as a preventive or protective measure could arguably be justified. The use of a Mother Mold is indefensible, that's true.
    I see Orchis as the elite reaction to losing influence and power not really a reaction seeking to protect other people, thatīs why itīs members are all former agents from the world intelligence agencies. I see them more like an evolution of the anti-mutant groups rather than a defense of humanity.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 05-17-2021 at 12:39 PM.
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  9. #1389
    Mighty Member Brian B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    ...I see Orchis as the elite reaction to losing influence and power not really a reaction seeking to protect other people, thatīs why itīs members are all former agents from the world intelligence agencies. I see them more like an evolution of the anti-mutant groups rather than a defense of humanity.
    That’s a good point. I really want the Orchis and Nimrod plots to get going.

  10. #1390
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Yes me too, hopefully thatīs what the new X-men title or Hickmanīs secret title will be about, they certainly have been taking their time
    "To the X-men then, who donīt die the old fashioned way and no matter how hard we try, none of us die forever" Uncanny X-Men #270, Jean and Ororo

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  11. #1391
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Because they have a Mother Mold and all that that stands for...they are most certainly an evolution of the anti-mutants groups under the guise of humanity's "defenders". Their intent is absolutely clear just going by their initial reaction and response.
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  12. #1392
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I donīt think the average person knows who Apocalypse, Selene, Sinister, et all even are as all of them had their hidden identities and itīs also why Xavier is the main face for the country and Magneto to a lesser extend but at least he has been seen helping out the X-men or the Avengers or help take down Hydra from time to time so imo Orchis itself is a reaction from the world elites who are not ok with mutants being organized as a nation and taking over in a very peaceful way that doesnīt allow them to justify an open attack.
    Certainly most people wouldn't know but with modern technology and the numerous conflicts that there have been (thanks Marvel) there should be plenty of people and even conspiracy websites spreading this information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Yes it would be a nice way to include a third faction that makes sense because at the end of the day most mutants are born from human families who loved them or love them. In fact it was never explained why they would allow their child to be taken to camps. Old Genosha had the story of a couple, one a mutant and one a human who was the Son of the one in charge to the mutates concentration camps so he used his father influence to save his girlfriend and later became a rebel in favor of mutants so yes, thereīs room for more stories like that one.
    And I think that point of view is explored so little, there's so much ground to explore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I see Orchis as the elite reaction to losing influence and power not really a reaction seeking to protect other people, thatīs why itīs members are all former agents from the world intelligence agencies. I see them more like an evolution of the anti-mutant groups rather than a defense of humanity.
    I'd like to see possible deserters of Orchis, individuals who believe that there should be a response but disagree with the extreme direction that Orchis eventually went.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  13. #1393
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Certainly most people wouldn't know but with modern technology and the numerous conflicts that there have been (thanks Marvel) there should be plenty of people and even conspiracy websites spreading this information.
    Yes definitely thatīs why I think the rule of kill no man is not only important to keep mutants with bad intentions in check it also gives humanity an olive branch from which they have room to talk out their issues instead of going overboard with it. Imo thatīs probably why Magneto made such a show when Cortez tried to put a stop to it, itīs not only a matter of internal politics for Krakoa, itīs also what keeps a fragile balance between the rest of humanity and mutants hence why Magneto said not even he would be given a excuse if he broke it, not only because of the law itself but because he has a group of loyal mutants that would feel justified in following in his footsteps.

    And I think that point of view is explored so little, there's so much ground to explore.
    Definitely that would be another new ground to explore, outside of the traditional super hero groups like the FF4 or the Avengers.


    I'd like to see possible deserters of Orchis, individuals who believe that there should be a response but disagree with the extreme direction that Orchis eventually went.
    That would be interesting, I would like to see something like that as well. In the Magnetoīs solo title by Bunn there were some agents from Shield who were ok in stopping him when he went to far but also sometimes helped him get information about captured mutants because they agreed it was unfair, that kind of nuance would be nice to see.
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  14. #1394
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    Yes definitely thatīs why I think the rule of kill no man is not only important to keep mutants with bad intentions in check it also gives humanity an olive branch from which they have room to talk out their issues instead of going overboard with it. Imo thatīs probably why Magneto made such a show when Cortez tried to put a stop to it, itīs not only a matter of internal politics for Krakoa, itīs also what keeps a fragile balance between the rest of humanity and mutants hence why Magneto said not even he would be given a excuse if he broke it, not only because of the law itself but because he has a group of loyal mutants that would feel justified in following in his footsteps.
    This is an excellent point.
    One which parallels their offering of free "drugs" to help humanity...in terms of optics, if you are seen to be genuinely helping humanity and have their best interest at heart, then it makes it difficult for your detractors to say otherwise.
    My Summer rain. My rooftop in Japan. My quiet in the storm. *cries* Al Ewing is GOD...Praise His name! Uplift Him in song! Glorify His works!

  15. #1395
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Exactly and thatīs why itīs better for Orchis to remain a secret group, they donīt want to be seen attacking a country outnowhere for not reason and in the journey or helping out humanity in a genuine way you end with better human and mutant relationships than it was before thatīs why I think Krakoa is a interesting compromise for all involved, mutants(X-men or otherwise) and humans.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 05-17-2021 at 01:49 PM.
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