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  1. #616
    Spectacular Member Cane_danko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    I don't think they're villains, I'm saying they've adopted the superiority ideology of some of their villains.
    This is true. It is the point of krakoa actually. I would argue that these villains have toned down their rhetoric quite a bit from their past selves in order to maintain the status quo which is krakoa. Can you imagine someone like sinister adopting the “kill no human” law without krakoa? Krakoa has been a melting pot of varying philosophies of mutantdom. It is still in its early stages in regards to a culture. There are plenty of idealogical differences just on the quiet council alone. It makes sense.

  2. #617
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    What do we have to wait a full decade for characters to be consistent with what we've previously seen then? I know there was lip service to the mutants still believing in the dream in X-Men 4 but it feels two years in now like something that was there to placate fans and dispel the theories that he was being controlled by Sinister than what the X-Men actually believe now. Up till the announcement of the new team at the Hellfire gala it's been supremacy, separatism, and isolationism, which aren't what I read the X-Men for.

  3. #618
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    Is it fair for me to say that the people who think the xmen are villains now that you don’t understand what is going on nor did you ever really get what the xmen were about in the first place?
    Well ask the officials...
    GrindrStone(D)

  4. #619
    Spectacular Member Cane_danko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    What do we have to wait a full decade for characters to be consistent with what we've previously seen then? I know there was lip service to the mutants still believing in the dream in X-Men 4 but it feels two years in now like something that was there to placate fans and dispel the theories that he was being controlled by Sinister than what the X-Men actually believe now. Up till the announcement of the new team at the Hellfire gala it's been supremacy, separatism, and isolationism, which aren't what I read the X-Men for.
    What exactly are you talking about? Xavier abandoned his dream on multiple occasions. Even in the claremont era he bailed on the xmen to be with the shi’ar. Since house of m, cyclops has been consistent in his views towards mutant/human relations and taking a more militant approach. You had others like wolverine and storm who found that to be an extreme view. Those viewpoints are still there they have just evolved. Not to mention, how can you expect the same person to be that same person year after year? The vast majority of people are not the same person they were two years ago and that is without trauma and persecution.

  5. #620
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    Is it fair for me to say that the people who think the xmen are villains now that you donít understand what is going on nor did you ever really get what the xmen were about in the first place?
    I wouldn't say they're villains but they're certainly straddling the morally gray area.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  6. #621
    Spectacular Member Cane_danko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I wouldn't say they're villains but they're certainly straddling the morally gray area.
    That’s the point. The mutants knew that going in. Xmen and villain alike.

  7. #622
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    What exactly are you talking about? Xavier abandoned his dream on multiple occasions. Even in the claremont era he bailed on the xmen to be with the shi’ar. Since house of m, cyclops has been consistent in his views towards mutant/human relations and taking a more militant approach. You had others like wolverine and storm who found that to be an extreme view. Those viewpoints are still there they have just evolved. Not to mention, how can you expect the same person to be that same person year after year? The vast majority of people are not the same person they were two years ago and that is without trauma and persecution.
    See, I'm glad you brought up Cyclops, because even when he took that militant approach he never gave up on coexistence with humans, and that was despite first dealing with near extinction and then having nearly the entire superhero community against him and his allies. He was more justified in giving up on the dream than anyone (other than Xavier and Magneto who know Moira's secret) is now and yet no one addresses that.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  8. #623
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    That’s the point. The mutants knew that going in. Xmen and villain alike.
    Yes, but there isn't enough questioning from characters who would have done so in the past. Other than Logan apparently.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  9. #624
    Spectacular Member Cane_danko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Yes, but there isn't enough questioning from characters who would have done so in the past. Other than Logan apparently.
    There has though. I can’t get on board if we are just going to have these types of back and forth of yes they didnt type of arguments. I dunno maybe in your mind they have not been as vocal as you would like and that’s fair. It’s your opinion to have.

  10. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    I wouldn't say they're villains but they're certainly straddling the morally gray area.
    You need a diversity of opinions from the various team members to have a well rounded book. The real question is have there been enough of it.
    Last edited by jmc247; 04-18-2021 at 07:00 AM.

  11. #626
    Astonishing Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    There has though. I can’t get on board if we are just going to have these types of back and forth of yes they didnt type of arguments. I dunno maybe in your mind they have not been as vocal as you would like and that’s fair. It’s your opinion to have.
    I'll be upfront and say that I have only picked up X-Men and to your point, yes, I don't feel it's done enough in that book. As the flagship, that's where it should be addressed most heavily.

    Maybe it is enough for others and that's fine too, but I'm not sold on it.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  12. #627
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    I guess then I'll just wait till the X-Men goes back to being something I recognize and are interested in instead of going along waiting on Hickmans name recognition for two straight years. However soon or far off it may be.

  13. #628
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    They're okay. I'm not crazy about them. The whole "we have our own nation" thing is just too reminiscent of other Marvel Universe groups like the Inhumans, the Eternals or the Atlanteans as well as echoing similar past storylines like Genosha or Avalon or Utopia with the only thing being used to suggest it might work out better is that almost everyone, either hero or villain, is on board with it this time. And I'm going to echo some voices I'm sure have come up in this thread (and which will probably get some hardcore X-Men fans mad at me, but whatever), it's weird seeing the X-Men treating the human race so much like "The Other". Especially seeing as I'm a human. I'm used to the old way when Xavier's argument was that even if some of us are mutants, we're all human.

    But then I wonder if my trouble connecting has more to do with background and age than anything else. While it's probably a supremely different experience for marginalized people, I think for straight white cis males like myself, we tend to connect more with this property when we're teenagers. Because every teenager feels like a freak who is afraid they'll never fit in anywhere. Essentially, you feel like a mutant. These days, as a thirty-something office worker, I sometimes feel like I'm a little too normal, a little too boring, like I fit in a little too well. A little too much of a "flatscan" if you will.

  14. #629
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    I think the whole concept of the new team itself kind of addresses some of this. They're putting it together to move themselves, partly at least, away from being controlled by the council. It's happening more slowly than I expected, or wanted, and the moral ambiguity - no bad thing in my view - remains. I think the interesting thing is that we're perhaps starting to see where possible splits could form with this whole thing, and it's coming from those you'd expect. Cyclops and Jean with their new team, Nightcrawler with the whole Way Of X, and Storm heading off. Of course Wolverine has had some questions since the start, and there must be others, it's just not been specifically shown.

    I'm still interested to see what the political machinations are moving forward, I'd like to see that addressed more, but obviously I realise in superhero comics that can be a bit heavy and boring. But the whole premise is good, you can see the movement, in my view, if you look for it, across all the books actually. It is just going slowly. I'm happy for this to keep running this way for at least another couple of years.

  15. #630
    Spectacular Member Cane_danko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Joe View Post
    I think the whole concept of the new team itself kind of addresses some of this. They're putting it together to move themselves, partly at least, away from being controlled by the council. It's happening more slowly than I expected, or wanted, and the moral ambiguity - no bad thing in my view - remains. I think the interesting thing is that we're perhaps starting to see where possible splits could form with this whole thing, and it's coming from those you'd expect. Cyclops and Jean with their new team, Nightcrawler with the whole Way Of X, and Storm heading off. Of course Wolverine has had some questions since the start, and there must be others, it's just not been specifically shown.

    I'm still interested to see what the political machinations are moving forward, I'd like to see that addressed more, but obviously I realise in superhero comics that can be a bit heavy and boring. But the whole premise is good, you can see the movement, in my view, if you look for it, across all the books actually. It is just going slowly. I'm happy for this to keep running this way for at least another couple of years.
    There is also the fact that you can’t just do 20 issues of mutants arguing their ideology. Just because it isn’t explicitly shown, does not mean people don’t have their reservations. I see people talk a lot about bad writing but fail to address that the things they want to see would be bad writing. Like, if every issue of xmen or whatever book is cyclops going at it with the council then its going to get old really quick. Better to address it when its relevant to the actual story, imo.

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