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  1. #1231
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    I think Hickman´s writting during Dawn of X focused on developing plot points that would be explored later by him or the other X-writers but now that the main characteristics of Krakoa are in place and the X-teams developed, he can now focus more on the character work because I get the sense we are going to get conflict and hopefully more answers
    what is man that you are mindful of him,
    and the son of man that you care for him? Psalm 8

  2. #1232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    I agree with Agent Grayson, we know the how but we also need to know the whys, I think we are in the middle of the story and we will know in time how this began and why the X-men decided to change so much of their long held beliefs.
    Yeah, there's a lot of unanswered questions, and a lot of people acting wildly out of character, and I see that not as bad writing, but as a clue that something is very, very wrong.

    Stuff like Jay Guthrie, who hated being a mutant so much that he cut off his own wings, refused to use his own healing powers to regrow them, and violently rejected attempts by folk like Elixir to heal them, and joined a mutant-hating cult that murdered a bunch of his friends (and then him), is back, and not only does *he* seem fine with being back (and winged and surrounded by fellow mutants), the people who *died because of him* seem to be fine with him being back, like it never happened! Same with the Cuckoo sisters, seen all together, even if one of them straight up attempted to murder the others. It's like everyone's past has been sort of washed away and they are all just going along with this Krakoa experiment, at the expense of forgetting their own personal pasts.

    And I assume that's all quite deliberate, and that, as Way of X says, 'something is rotten in the state of Krakoa.' I'm enjoying the ride, even if I'm aware of the bumps in the road, and can see the drop-off ahead.

  3. #1233
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    In Way of X and X-force there´s the plot point there´s something that is being fogotten between ressurections that will be important in the next issues. There´s also the fact most antagonist were accepted so I can see why they would forgive Jay and after that experience I can see him feeling regret over his actions but it would make sense for other characters to reference it sometimes like the morlocks and the marauders.

    I have a theory about this: during Age of X-man, when the world believed most of the X-men were dead and started a perssecution worldwide of mutants in which almost all the students from the Academy were killed and blindfold commited suicide, I could see Charles, who just came back from the dead and if he already was in contact with Moira, he could do something totally different to get his X-men back and would of course push him to develop Krakoa with Moira´s help.

    On Magneto´s solo title there´s a conversation between them where Magneto, after Axis, decides to honor Charles by helping develop the X-men at a time Wolverine, Charles and Cyclops were all dead while Xavier tries to tell him with an astral projection that he thought Erik had been right.

    I am not sure if thsoe stories will be addressed but I think they bring the background for the creation of Krakoa.
    what is man that you are mindful of him,
    and the son of man that you care for him? Psalm 8

  4. #1234
    Astonishing Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Yeah, there's a lot of unanswered questions, and a lot of people acting wildly out of character, and I see that not as bad writing, but as a clue that something is very, very wrong.

    Stuff like Jay Guthrie, who hated being a mutant so much that he cut off his own wings, refused to use his own healing powers to regrow them, and violently rejected attempts by folk like Elixir to heal them, and joined a mutant-hating cult that murdered a bunch of his friends (and then him), is back, and not only does *he* seem fine with being back (and winged and surrounded by fellow mutants), the people who *died because of him* seem to be fine with him being back, like it never happened! Same with the Cuckoo sisters, seen all together, even if one of them straight up attempted to murder the others. It's like everyone's past has been sort of washed away and they are all just going along with this Krakoa experiment, at the expense of forgetting their own personal pasts.

    And I assume that's all quite deliberate, and that, as Way of X says, 'something is rotten in the state of Krakoa.' I'm enjoying the ride, even if I'm aware of the bumps in the road, and can see the drop-off ahead.
    Xavier erased memories. That is the nly way to explain all of this. Ressurret the mutants but without some specific memories

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    In Way of X and X-force there´s the plot point there´s something that is being fogotten between ressurections that will be important in the next issues. There´s also the fact most antagonist were accepted so I can see why they would forgive Jay and after that experience I can see him feeling regret over his actions but it would make sense for other characters to reference it sometimes like the morlocks and the marauders.

    I have a theory about this: during Age of X-man, when the world believed most of the X-men were dead and started a perssecution worldwide of mutants in which almost all the students from the Academy were killed and blindfold commited suicide, I could see Charles, who just came back from the dead and if he already was in contact with Moira, he could do something totally different to get his X-men back and would of course push him to develop Krakoa with Moira´s help.

    On Magneto´s solo title there´s a conversation between them where Magneto, after Axis, decides to honor Charles by helping develop the X-men at a time Wolverine, Charles and Cyclops were all dead while Xavier tries to tell him with an astral projection that he thought Erik had been right.

    I am not sure if thsoe stories will be addressed but I think they bring the background for the creation of Krakoa.
    Xavier decided to do Krakoa on the past, he just decided now put the plan on motion.
    Last edited by Rang10; 05-09-2021 at 02:15 PM.

  5. #1235
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Xavier erased memories. That is the nly way to explain all of this
    Someone didn’t do his homework is another explanation…

  6. #1236
    Astonishing Member Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Someone didn’t do his homework is another explanation…
    AHAHA yes, it is a explanation on story for writers not caring about characters story.

    I'm not convinced that writers think they are writing chaarcters out of character, they sees to be drinking the cool aid

  7. #1237
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    There´s clearly a before Moira brought her changes to the timeline and after she made changes to the timeline, we could say there´s now two timelines, one in which Moira didn´t made her changes and the one in which she did made her changes but in both I could see Charles getting to a point in which he could consider krakoa as a possibility given his story and the way he DOESN´T deal with his personal problems, choosing instead to supress them.


    Now I don´t think so Hickman likes to left thing unexplained until it´s neccesary to bring them in the open for the story, I don´t think it´s coincidence Charles is using cerebro all the time in a way that makes him very similar to ultimate evil Reed Richards, who became a villain, I don´t think it´s coincidence Way of X and X-force are dealing with the memory loss between ressurections, etc. Even Claremont Xavier had a darkside that was the result of him supresing his darker impulses for a long period of time, Onslaught was the result of one time he left himself out of check and I guess believing for a year that all the X-men and Magneto were dead and to see what happened to the rest of the school would be enough to push him over the edge again and let out his darker persona once again.


    I think Krakoa itself as an idea is good enough, even neccesary, after wolrdwide perssecution of mutants who were left without a home but Hickman has made sure to let some clues that point to something not quite right with this world, even Magneto had some doubts about the ressurections process in the beggining of the story and I guess this is where the conflict will come during reing of X, especially now that we will have a main X-men team on New York, Krakoa and SWORD all with different leaderships.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 05-09-2021 at 02:50 PM.
    what is man that you are mindful of him,
    and the son of man that you care for him? Psalm 8

  8. #1238
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    That's exactly what I'm getting...in the books I'm reading. And even in the ones I'm not. If that's not how you and others see it well...

    I don't think any of us who are thoroughly enjoying this run are completely blind to the many faults across the line...like some of the "Whys"...but it's more that I (we) choose to focus on the positives which for me far outway the negatives. I find appreciation in what it is...not what it was, nor what I think it could be, as both those options are irrelevant.
    I'm not talking about progression in individual B or C-Plots, I mean the main A-Plot. It's perfectly fine for those who enjoy their books to do so obviously, and I and others have been clear about that. By that same token, there's nothing wrong with those of us who aren't enjoying certain elements sharing those opinions to see if there are others who might agree. Those opinions aren't an attack on you or anyone else who is enjoying one or several books.

    I would say that one can appreciate what is, but that what something was or could be is actually relevant in regards to providing criticism on a given work.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  9. #1239
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Yeah, there's a lot of unanswered questions, and a lot of people acting wildly out of character, and I see that not as bad writing, but as a clue that something is very, very wrong.

    Stuff like Jay Guthrie, who hated being a mutant so much that he cut off his own wings, refused to use his own healing powers to regrow them, and violently rejected attempts by folk like Elixir to heal them, and joined a mutant-hating cult that murdered a bunch of his friends (and then him), is back, and not only does *he* seem fine with being back (and winged and surrounded by fellow mutants), the people who *died because of him* seem to be fine with him being back, like it never happened! Same with the Cuckoo sisters, seen all together, even if one of them straight up attempted to murder the others. It's like everyone's past has been sort of washed away and they are all just going along with this Krakoa experiment, at the expense of forgetting their own personal pasts.

    And I assume that's all quite deliberate, and that, as Way of X says, 'something is rotten in the state of Krakoa.' I'm enjoying the ride, even if I'm aware of the bumps in the road, and can see the drop-off ahead.
    This point should be inoffensive and yet when I've brought it up or seen it brought up, there's push back, as if we should accept everything at face value. That the homogeneity of thought is fine and in-character and a natural outgrowth of the narrative.

    Yeah, there's a book now that is solely focused on exploring this idea, but it's arrival seems poorly timed. Hopefully it succeeds in making sense of things.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  10. #1240
    Incredible Member kevinism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rang10 View Post
    Only if the clue is 10% of what a clue is. It's like I want proof and people offer me a crazy conspiracy theory that I have to imagine 90% of what isn't on page.
    You're cute when you're stubborn.

  11. #1241

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    Don't agree with everything and I'm a HUGE fan of some of the books you haven't tried out yet, but this was a very fun breakdown to read. Your criticisms completely make sense (see the point that I bolded because I FELT that) and nowhere throughout your analysis did you try to rain on the parade of people who are fully enjoying themselves (which is very appreciated).
    To be honest, I'm a bit jealous of those who are really loving it - it's an exciting time to be an X-Men fan! Out of interest, what are the books I mentioned that you're a big fan of? I've heard lots of good things about SWORD so I'm looking forward to trying that.

  12. #1242
    Mighty Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Grayson View Post
    To be honest, I'm a bit jealous of those who are really loving it - it's an exciting time to be an X-Men fan! Out of interest, what are the books I mentioned that you're a big fan of? I've heard lots of good things about SWORD so I'm looking forward to trying that.
    My favorite books are SWORD, Hellions, New Mutants (after the title got a new writer with issue 14), and X-Factor (which isn’t everyone’s cup of tea but I enjoy it). I also had a blast reading the first issue of Way of X, so I’m sure that’ll be added to the list once more issues come out.

  13. #1243
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Yeah, there's a lot of unanswered questions, and a lot of people acting wildly out of character, and I see that not as bad writing, but as a clue that something is very, very wrong.

    Stuff like Jay Guthrie, who hated being a mutant so much that he cut off his own wings, refused to use his own healing powers to regrow them, and violently rejected attempts by folk like Elixir to heal them, and joined a mutant-hating cult that murdered a bunch of his friends (and then him), is back, and not only does *he* seem fine with being back (and winged and surrounded by fellow mutants), the people who *died because of him* seem to be fine with him being back, like it never happened! Same with the Cuckoo sisters, seen all together, even if one of them straight up attempted to murder the others. It's like everyone's past has been sort of washed away and they are all just going along with this Krakoa experiment, at the expense of forgetting their own personal pasts.

    And I assume that's all quite deliberate, and that, as Way of X says, 'something is rotten in the state of Krakoa.' I'm enjoying the ride, even if I'm aware of the bumps in the road, and can see the drop-off ahead.
    Jay Guthrie hated being a mutant? He was brainwashed by Striker to believe mutants were devil's but died with a change of heart and deep regret.

  14. #1244
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Jay Guthrie hated being a mutant? He was brainwashed by Striker to believe mutants were devil's but died with a change of heart and deep regret.
    Really? I remember him running away from his friends *again* and right back to Stryker, the mutant-hater who 'thanked' him for his help by shooting him in the head?

    Maybe there was a later bit I didn't read?

    In either case, his current situation seems to be kind of nonchalant, considering his last few weeks of life, and the complete non-reaction from all the people who could legitimately blame him for getting them or their friends killed, also seems a bit out of character.

    There are some mutants, such as the former Morlocks picking a fight with Greycrow, or the other Morlocks refusing to even set foot on Krakoa and hanging out in Arizona or Madripoor, that are acting much more *in* character, it seems.

    It doesn't have to be Xavier up to shenanigans, either. Shadow King, Exodus, Krakoa itself, are all potentials. (Krakoa has a passive link to the psychic energies of all of them, for instance, so it's not impossible that he has the ability to render his chosen prey, mutants, somewhat passive and accepting of their current circumstances, so as to remain in place and available for him to feed off of, and not run away.) Perhaps even a modification made to Cerebro, by Moira, that even Xavier doesn't know about!

    All sorts of options.

    And yes, sloppy writing could be one of them. But there's a whole lot of good writing here, and crazy callbacks to characters we'd practically forgotten (like Taki or Cortez), so it seems unlikely that there'd be quite so much gratuitous OOC behavior from writers who seem to have such a deep well of knowledge of older characters and tales.

  15. #1245
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    Really? I remember him running away from his friends *again* and right back to Stryker, the mutant-hater who 'thanked' him for his help by shooting him in the head?

    Maybe there was a later bit I didn't read?

    In either case, his current situation seems to be kind of nonchalant, considering his last few weeks of life, and the complete non-reaction from all the people who could legitimately blame him for getting them or their friends killed, also seems a bit out of character.

    There are some mutants, such as the former Morlocks picking a fight with Greycrow, or the other Morlocks refusing to even set foot on Krakoa and hanging out in Arizona or Madripoor, that are acting much more *in* character, it seems.

    It doesn't have to be Xavier up to shenanigans, either. Shadow King, Exodus, Krakoa itself, are all potentials. (Krakoa has a passive link to the psychic energies of all of them, for instance, so it's not impossible that he has the ability to render his chosen prey, mutants, somewhat passive and accepting of their current circumstances, so as to remain in place and available for him to feed off of, and not run away.) Perhaps even a modification made to Cerebro, by Moira, that even Xavier doesn't know about!

    All sorts of options.

    And yes, sloppy writing could be one of them. But there's a whole lot of good writing here, and crazy callbacks to characters we'd practically forgotten (like Taki or Cortez), so it seems unlikely that there'd be quite so much gratuitous OOC behavior from writers who seem to have such a deep well of knowledge of older characters and tales.
    Yeah read his death scene. He sees Nimrod, realises he was making a mistake. Tries to save his friends but manages to warn them with a message. Has complete regret. Also Dust followed him and he loved her.

    Jay had complete regret

    Jays crisis of faith was due to M-Day. He went to a Church seeking guidance because he felt that M-day was a way of God punishing mutants as they are spawn of the devil. Stryker also murdered his girlfriend and prior to M-Day that made Jay suicidal.

    Really there are two people Jay should hate Wanda and Stryker. May gave Stryker his wings in the hope to protect his friends
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    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 05-10-2021 at 05:18 AM.

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