What do you think of Hickmans X-Men so far, still Interested or Not ??

[Lucyinthesky]

House of X 1
Magneto "You see, I know how you humans love your symbolism, almost as much as you love your religion"
Magneto "And I wanted you... I needed you... To understand"
Magneto "You have new gods now"

Are they blaming Genosha and Decimation on the rest of humanity? That is what the art a few pages back on this thread suggests.
I want to see where Hickman takes this story but I just don't understand this new narrative or where it came from.

I agree this came out of left field given that Magneto said this on Israel and while he has not been particulary religious he still holds some respect for his Jewish roots and in the past he has still made expressions of his beliefs so I took this as him just wanting to make a point to the diplomats of the main economic powers in the world while his actitude with non-powered human in general has been a lot more cordial which makes me think he makes a difference between those who are in power and those who are just living their lives the best way they can.



I agree Magneto taking over Cape citadel definitely worsened the state of things between humans and mutants, mostly because most people were still unaware of mutants existence, still Claremont left some clues about how some goverments already had plans to use mutants as weapons, so I would say it was a mutual situation in which the two sides worsened the state of things with Magneto worsening the mutants standing with the general public on one hand and some goverments having their secret projects to use mutants on the other hand.

[Grunty]

I agree this came out of left field given that Magneto said this on Israel and while he has not been particulary religious he still holds some respect for his Jewish roots and in the past he has still made expressions of his beliefs so I took this as him just wanting to make a point to the diplomats of the main economic powers in the world while his actitude with non-powered human in general has been a lot more cordial which makes me think he makes a difference between those who are in power and those who are just living their lives the best way they can.

That's raising some good point. But it makes me wonder when he is showing his game face and when he is being honest? Especialy given his past in which he could flip flop from full fanaticism to reasonable if flawed reasoning, between appearances (and writers). Not to forget that it's not unusual for prejudiced people to make invididual exceptions, while their view towards a collective can remain the same.

And even in his heroic moments, Magneto tends to look down on normal humans in general, feeling pitty rather than hate towards them. Still a form of compassion, but more suiting his anti-hero presentation, than the classic hero role the regular X-men normaly play. Which is all fitting and interesting for this character.

However my problem is that these heros are now sounding a lot like him. Again not helped by the rethoric shown by them in internal discussions, which raises the question of how much they seem to actualy buy into the boast Magneto did there.

Though, it's one reason i'm quite interested in Nightcrawler's journey in Way of X.

There is a visible journey in all of this. But i'm not clapping for them at the halfway point yet.

I agree Magneto taking over Cape citadel definitely worsened the state of things between humans and mutants, mostly because most people were still unaware of mutants existence, still Claremont left some clues about how some goverments already had plans to use mutants as weapons, so I would say it was a mutual situation in which the two sides worsened the state of things with Magneto worsening the mutants standing with the general public on one hand and some goverments having their secret projects to use mutants on the other hand.

With additional retcons of mutant agression and agression against mutants dating back further and further back in history, it becomes really difficult to tell who has thrown the first stone.

Though i guess the truth is there were a series of first stones thrown through the history of the Marvel universe and both sides are independently guilty of it. Especialy since there wasn't a single united faction of either for most of history (and normal humans still aren't).

For the modern day situation. The situation was definetly mutual, but the public just saw Magneto being the first to openly act on it.

[Kingdom X]

It's krakoa culture think Mutants are superior to humans

I’m still divided on this. For sure Emma, Magneto, and Apocalypse have all said derogatory things.... but that’s nothing new. At the same time you have characters like Jean and Kate who have shown pretty much the same level of care for humans.

I don’t think Dani referring to “human institutions” is inherently a superiority thing. If I started referring to Western institutions I don’t think you would assume I thought they were inferior.

Lastly, I think it’s intentionally in a gray area. There are moments of genuine pride that come with the mutants having some semblance of peace for once, but then there are also sinister undertones here and there. I do think it’s odd that people are much more upset with the humans/ mutant division now that the mutants aren’t an endangered species facing extinction after extinction, but to each their own.

[Grunty]

I’m still divided on this. For sure Emma, Magneto, and Apocalypse have all said derogatory things.... but that’s nothing new. At the same time you have characters like Jean and Kate who have shown pretty much the same level of care for humans.

I don’t think Dani referring to “human institutions” is inherently a superiority thing. If I started referring to Western institutions I don’t think you would assume I thought they were inferior.

Lastly, I think it’s intentionally in a gray area. There are moments of genuine pride that come with the mutants having some semblance of peace for once, but then there are also sinister undertones here and there. I do think it’s odd that people are much more upset with the humans/ mutant division now that the mutants aren’t an endangered species facing extinction after extinction, but to each their own.

Perhaps part of the problem is quality of the writing when it comes to characterization, narration and presentation. Which because of the many writers involved at the moment and the differences in skill and focus, can lead to lacking or contradicting views into the characters and their motivations.

Hickman for example is a great at plotting and constructing a world and story in my opinion, but i feel he is lacking in actual characterization. The characters under him often feel more like devices, who play off narration and explanations from a recording, rather than people thinking and feeling like they should in this world he creates.

So there it becomes difficult for some readers to pinpoint what are the actual character motivations, what are actual characters believe, what is supposed to be in line with the character, what is supposed to be odd for them, where are we supposed to agree and where are we supposed to disagree with what they are saying and where do the writers mess up getting that across?

Which is where some might loss their patience to wait for the end of the main book, because it's not clear if the divide, which i see as problematic message, is supposed to be normalized or the point where everything breaks appart eventualy.

[Lucyinthesky]

That's raising some good point. But it makes me wonder when he is showing his game face and when he is being honest? Especialy given his past in which he could flip flop from full fanaticism to reasonable if flawed reasoning, between appearances (and writers). Not to forget that it's not unusual for prejudiced people to make invididual exceptions, while their view towards a collective can remain the same.

And even in his heroic moments, Magneto tends to look down on normal humans in general, feeling pitty rather than hate towards them. Still a form of compassion, but more suiting his anti-hero presentation, than the classic hero role the regular X-men normaly play. Which is all fitting and interesting for this character.

We have gone over this during his first reformation period Magneto doesn´t see human beings with pity, he seems them as potentially dangerous to themselves and to mutants but mostly he has this oppinion on it´s leaders, those who built the nuclear weapons and the sentinels while he mostly acts normal with those who are not part of the goverments, neither with pity or with fear or with hate, he just interacts with them as he would with anyone else. I don´t know if the writers do this on purpose but this is pretty much his de-facto behavoir even since the 80´s. The problem and what made him a villain was how far was he willing to go in his search to protect mutants.



It´s ironic but seeing his personality from when he was a child to a young adult his interaction with people is mostly quiet and taciturn, unless he´s angry, in which case he can be quite violent, especially since he has PTSD, he´s not very sociable and just puts on the Magneto persona when he´s getting ready to make a statement. that´s mostly how I see the difference in his behavoir, when he´s being more himself he goes back to his quiet and taciturn personality unless he´s deliveratelly trying to get a reaction from the people with which he´s interacting.

However my problem is that these heros are now sounding a lot like him. Again not helped by the rethoric shown by them in internal discussions, which raises the question of how much they seem to actualy buy into the boast Magneto did there.

The X-men have never buy into Magneto´s boast, they are perfectly aware of the differences between his boasts and their own thoughts on the matter, I think mostly the X-men are feed up and tired of trying different ways and not really making a difference so they suppose something quite different would lead them somewhere else and again, they are actually supporting Xavier like they traditionally have done. I dont think it´s a crime or a bad thing to actually try to make life better for mutants in general and also keep their work as heros for the entire world, specially seeing the last decade events, it only makes sense for them to try something different just to get into a more beareable state of things.

Though, it's one reason i'm quite interested in Nightcrawler's journey in Way of X.

There is a visible journey in all of this. But i'm not clapping for them at the halfway point yet.

I agree I think Way of X will serve both a wake up call for all characters, specially Charles on a need for a new way to function as a society, for Magneto to reevaluate his past, given there´s going to be a kind of exploration on the jewish faith, for the X-men to rediscover their values and their importance on this new stage of life and for Krakoa in general when they discover life must be way more valued than they are doing at the moment. I actually hope Spurrier shakes them all and it´s going to also bring a great story, because while they feel so well with themselves, they are still human and flawed that way but given their powers their mistakes have the capability of being quite bigger and permanent.

With additional retcons of mutant agression and agression against mutants dating back further and further back in history, it becomes really difficult to tell who has thrown the first stone.

Though i guess the truth is there were a series of first stones thrown through the history of the Marvel universe and both sides are independently guilty of it. Especialy since there wasn't a single united faction of either for most of history (and normal humans still aren't).

For the modern day situation. The situation was definetly mutual, but the public just saw Magneto being the first to openly act on it.

Yes it was Magneto who discovered those plans when he was working as a secret agent for an agency called control and bassically lost his mind over it, still he holds responsibily of trying tactics that woud be counterproductive to most mutants, trying to give them a place and a voice with those of authority he made things worse in the eyes of the general public, I thought Mystique was more pragmatic by using her links and her powers and her work with the goverment to advance her personal agenda this is why I think her brotherhood was way more effective in general and still this doesn´t justify the sentinels and Genosha already had made it´s mutant population slaves to help their economy, so I see this as humans and mutants just having their different motives for their actions without really taking in consideration the consequences of their actions which is quite realist.

[Lucyinthesky]

Perhaps part of the problem is quality of the writing when it comes to characterization, narration and presentation. Which because of the many writers involved at the moment and the differences in skill and focus, can lead to lacking or contradicting views into the characters and their motivations.

Hickman for example is a great at plotting and constructing a world and story in my opinion, but i feel he is lacking in actual characterization. The characters under him often feel more like devices, who play off narration and explanations from a recording, rather than people thinking and feeling like they should in this world he creates.

So there it becomes difficult for some readers to pinpoint what are the actual character motivations, what are actual characters believe, what is supposed to be in line with the character, what is supposed to be odd for them, where are we supposed to agree and where are we supposed to disagree with what they are saying and where do the writers mess up getting that across?

Which is where some might loss their patience to wait for the end of the main book, because it's not clear if the divide, which i see as problematic message, is supposed to be normalized or the point where everything breaks appart eventualy.

Agreed I loved Hickmans characterization on his FF and New Avengers(Illuminati) books but his work on X-men so far has been about worldbuilding than about characterization to make those changes make sense for all the characters and I think this was fundamental because IT´S A BIG CHANGE in strategy compared to the past and it needs to be addressed inside story their reasons to be ok with all of this and I hope this will be addressed by Hickman with the new X-men team, I hope he will now get into the character work now that Krakoa is already stablished.

[Houseofhick]

I agree this came out of left field given that Magneto said this on Israel and while he has not been particulary religious he still holds some respect for his Jewish roots and in the past he has still made expressions of his beliefs so I took this as him just wanting to make a point to the diplomats of the main economic powers in the world while his actitude with non-powered human in general has been a lot more cordial which makes me think he makes a difference between those who are in power and those who are just living their lives the best way they can.



I agree Magneto taking over Cape citadel definitely worsened the state of things between humans and mutants, mostly because most people were still unaware of mutants existence, still Claremont left some clues about how some goverments already had plans to use mutants as weapons, so I would say it was a mutual situation in which the two sides worsened the state of things with Magneto worsening the mutants standing with the general public on one hand and some goverments having their secret projects to use mutants on the other hand.

I agree, that both mutants and the rest of humanity need to take their fair share of blame for the hate.
The writers can't keep blaming the rest of humanity for ALL the mutants problems. How many times have mutants been the cause of their own pain and suffering? It is not lost on me that one of those mutants is still stirring the pot by claiming to be a god ............... NO!
I do like it when posts like yours make me see different angles but I just can't agree with the God comment.......... Sorry!
If he is going to say things like this while representing mutants then for me the X-Men don't stand for what I believed them to be.

[Fokken]

I’m still divided on this. For sure Emma, Magneto, and Apocalypse have all said derogatory things.... but that’s nothing new. At the same time you have characters like Jean and Kate who have shown pretty much the same level of care for humans.

I don’t think Dani referring to “human institutions” is inherently a superiority thing. If I started referring to Western institutions I don’t think you would assume I thought they were inferior.

Lastly, I think it’s intentionally in a gray area. There are moments of genuine pride that come with the mutants having some semblance of peace for once, but then there are also sinister undertones here and there. I do think it’s odd that people are much more upset with the humans/ mutant division now that the mutants aren’t an endangered species facing extinction after extinction, but to each their own.

Agreed. I read those moments, like the one you refer to with Dani, as distinguishing a cultural difference, as well as pride in their progress and accomplishments as a Nation.

Emma. Magneto. Apocalypse. They've always felt superior. And not just to humans either. Their self assuredness transcends.

I can see the issue many folks are having though. Much of the ire seems connected to the use of "human" as an implied all-encompassing and inescapable blanket statement, which is only further exacerbated by the regularity of its use by Krakoans OUTSIDE of the aforementioned trio. So when language that previously provokes a sense of condescension(Mags) is being used by characters more recognized for their altruism (Dani), readers are naturally going to draw parallels and in doing so associate our "heroes" with the sensibilities of our "villains". Of course, I use those two terms facetiously as I don't subscribe to binary boxing--particularly for such complex characters. So please, Emma/Mags/Poccy fans: Don't smash me. I love them too.

All that being said, Krakoa is not pillaging suburbs, nor kidnapping children, nor holding humanity by some giant floral leash.

[Grunty]

We have gone over this during his first reformation period Magneto doesn´t see human beings with pity, he seems them as potentially dangerous to themselves and to mutants but mostly he has this oppinion on it´s leaders, those who built the nuclear weapons and the sentinels while he mostly acts normal with those who are not part of the goverments, neither with pity or with fear or with hate, he just interacts with them as he would with anyone else. I don´t know if the writers do this on purpose but this is pretty much his de-facto behavoir even since the 80´s.

That does make sense and fits many of his past more anti-heroic/villain moments i admit.

It´s ironic but seeing his personality from when he was a child to a young adult his interaction with people is mostly quiet and taciturn, he´s not very sociable and just puts on the Magneto persona when he´s getting ready to make a statement. that´s mostly how I see the difference in his behavoir, when he´s being more himself he goes back to his quiet and taciturn personality unless he´s deliveratelly trying to get a reaction from the people with which he´s interacting.

And that's why i find it difficult in the current direction to see where his game face is and where he has his mask down. I guess the whole Moira X business and how much she really changed the two is what gets me worried about how to read him and Xavier at the moment.

The X-men have never buy into Magneto´s boast, they are perfectly aware of the differences between his boasts and their own thoughts on the matter, I think mostly the X-men are feed up and tired of trying different ways and not really make a difference so they suppose something quite different would lead them somewhere else and again, they are actually supporting Xavier like they traditionally have done.

That's where i feel there is still a contrast between how they act as a group and how they act on an invidiual level, but i see and understand your point and admit it could be right, while i overthinkg the wrong details.

Yes it was Magneto who discovered those plans when he was working as a secret agent for an agency called control and bassically lost his mind over it, still he holds responsibily of trying tactics that woud be counterproductive to most mutants, trying to give them a place and a voice with those of authority he made things worse in the eyes of the general public, I thought Mystique was more pragmatic by using her links and her powers and her work with the goverment to advance her personal agenda this is why I think her brotherhood was way more effective in general and still this doesn´t justify the sentinels and Genosha already had made it´s mutant population slaves to help their economy, so I see this as humans and mutants just having their different motives for their actions without really taking in consideration the consequences of their actions which is quite realist.

Yeah quite understandable.

Though with the nature as super hero comic, the past decades have also made the situation increasingly worse. As there needs to be a constant new evil organization of normal humans trying to wipe out, enslave or exploit mutants, while evil megalomanic mutants constantly need to show up and plan to do the same to normal humans. Essentialy giving the radicals on both sides fodder to fuel their anti-"the other" ideologies.

Though thinking about it.
With both sides constantly showing their worst and only the mutant heros having any white (or bright grey) shading (the other Marvel heros are only temporary presences and aren't allowed to constantly show up so the X-men can resolve the problems themself), combined with normal humans who aren't part of evil organizations being mostly sidelined as bit players or reduced to a backround filler (because the narration needs to focus on the heros, villains or enemies foremost so it's a necessary narrative tool i would argue), it's no wonder one can get the image that humanity in the marvel universe is a weirdly united faction against mutants, while the mutants are much more presented as actualy divided between the good, the and the ugly of their group.

[Lucyinthesky]

I agree, that both mutants and the rest of humanity need to take their fair share of blame for the hate.
The writers can't keep blaming the rest of humanity for ALL the mutants problems. How many times have mutants been the cause of their own pain and suffering? It is not lost on me that one of those mutants is still stirring the pot by claiming to be a god ............... NO!
I do like it when posts like yours make me see different angles but I just can't agree with the God comment.......... Sorry!
If he is going to say things like this while representing mutants then for me the X-Men don't stand for what I believed them to be.

I actually quite disliked that moment too tbh, specially since it was done on Israel given the place means a lot for Magneto for his origins, because he meet Xavier there and because it´s kind of the model he has been trying to get for mutants, a place for mutants to be safe from persecution has it´s origin there, so yes this didn´t clic with me

I am just making an interpretation on his actitude there and connected it with the people he was talking to given they were expecting Xavier, not him and one of them was getting ready to kill Xavier off during this meeting so I guess that helped to change his actitude during the conversation a I actually hope Spurrier looks closer into this as well on Way of X because while Magneto definitely has always been pro-mutant he didn´t really made the mistake of thinking of them as "actual gods" lol he himself and other other mutants have messed up enough times for him to hold this pov, so for me it makes more sense as a political statement than something he believes in a literal way.

[Houseofhick]

I actually quite disliked that moment too tbh I am just making an interpretation on his actitude there and connected it with the people he was talking to given they were expecting Xavier, not him and one of them was getting ready to kill Xavier off during this meeting so I guess that helped to change his actitude during the conversation a I actually hope Spurrier looks closer into this as well on Way of X because while Magneto definitely has always been pro-mutant he didn´t really made the mistake of thinking of them as "actual gods" lol he himself and other other mutants have messed up enough times for him to hold this pov, so for me it makes more sense as a political statement than something he believes in a literal way.

Really enjoy the comments you and grunty make.
Personally, I would of liked him being pulled up on that comment or for him just not to have made it.

[Lucyinthesky]

That does make sense and fits many of his past more anti-heroic/villain moments i admit.
And that's why i find it difficult in the current direction to see where his game face is and where he has his mask down. I guess the whole Moira X business and how much she really changed the two is what gets me worried about how to read him and Xavier at the moment.

Moira mostly tried to make them learn to work together, she made some comments about Magneto being particulary difficult and after he discovered her manipulation of his DNA he became quite closed off when it comes to her but he used to trust her to teach him how to care for the school during his first reformation period and she also wanted Charles to change his initial dream but this is a post-fact change on the timeline, we don´t know yet how much she changed their actual behavoir or even how much they actually trust her, I think Hickman purposelly left things quite open for the reader to interpret until he tackles Moira X situation, because her charactertization definitely has changed a lot compared to when she was human and a supporter for Charles and the X-men, this new Moira is way more manipulative and I think it´s the main subplot Hickman has with the X-men.

That's where i feel there is still a contrast between how they act as a group and how they act on an invidiual level, but i see and understand your point and admit it could be right, while i overthinkg the wrong details.

Yes I hope Way of X, the new team of X-men, Sword help to give the reader a bigger understanding of what the characters are thinking and why they decided to accept Krakoa in the first place, I am quite happy with Kurt making the exact questions I had with the whole ressurrection process so that´s a good beggining and I hope Hickman tackles those issues with the main X-men team while Sword deals with other mutants not quite associated with the X-men who support Krakoa for their own reasons, I think we are just in the middle of the story and we have yet to see the beggining of it.

Though with the nature as super hero comic, the past decades have also made the situation increasingly worse. As there needs to be a constant new evil organization of normal humans trying to wipe out, enslave or exploit mutants, while evil megalomanic mutants constantly need to show up and plan to do the same to normal humans. Essentialy giving the radicals on both sides fodder to fuel their anti-"the other" ideologies.

Though thinking about it.
With both sides constantly showing their worst and only the mutant heros having any white (or bright grey) shading (the other Marvel heros are only temporary presences and aren't allowed to constantly show up so the X-men can resolve the problems themself), combined with normal humans who aren't part of evil organizations being mostly sidelined as bit players or reduced to a backround filler (because the narration needs to focus on the heros, villains or enemies foremost so it's a necessary narrative tool i would argue), it's no wonder one can get the image that humanity in the marvel universe is a weirdly united faction against mutants, while the mutants are much more presented as actualy divided between the good, the and the ugly of their group.

Yes I think writers can do more showing the nicer side of humankind, Claremont used to do this with supporting human characters like Moira herself, Gabrielle Haller and later Valerie Cooper in the 90´s and Percy is doing something with that police officer Logan befriended on his title but I think it´s important to show more mutant support from different institurions and people or even other hero groups, that would make the story more compelling imo.

[Lucyinthesky]

Really enjoy the comments you and grunty make.
Personally, I would of liked him being pulled up on that comment or for him just not to have made it.

Agreed, I also wish he didn´t made it and I actually thought Xavier send Magneto instead of going himself to make the point of them not being willing to take more hits anymore but I wish he had used other words to make this point, especially given the context.

[Fokken]

Such a sexy panel.

[Lucyinthesky]

Such a sexy panel.

It´s this panel is from "Magneto:Not a hero by Skottie Young and art by Clay Mann

I hope he gets back to work on a X-title at some point