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  1. #46
    Incredible Member Rufio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tank View Post
    It’s a drag to be honest. Ready for this cult vibe to be over with, for the characters to matter more than the plot and the xmen to feel like themselves again.
    Yep. Totally agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrel View Post
    I think I hate it; the entire situation involves to much coolaid drinking, so much of this should have been a deal breakers for so many.
    I think I hate it too.

    I was really ready to give it a chance, but these characters... they’re just following along and there was no real build up to this mass acceptance of Krakoa. Especially with characters like Sinister running around and everyone just accepts it. My hope is some other (but good) writer comes along and fixes this ooc mess. I’d even be willing to accept Krakoa more if there wasn’t so much cult like behavior with some X-Men actually NOT being on/for Krakoa.

    It’s not the worst, but I still hate it.
    “Fleeing through the labyrinths with the hordes of the living dead fast upon them;
    Once again they found themselves trapped in front of the abyss.”

  2. #47
    Mighty Member Malachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufio View Post

    I think I hate it too.

    I was really ready to give it a chance, but these characters... they’re just following along and there was no real build up to this mass acceptance of Krakoa. Especially with characters like Sinister running around and everyone just accepts it. My hope is some other (but good) writer comes along and fixes this ooc mess. I’d even be willing to accept Krakoa more if there wasn’t so much cult like behavior with some X-Men actually NOT being on/for Krakoa.

    It’s not the worst, but I still hate it.
    Even if there is some twist or reveal about subtle mindcontrol or influence the facts still stand. We have gotten this status quo for close to 2 years. In that sense Corona hasn’t been a friend to Hickman. So if the characters start behaving as themselves again does Hickman write that for 2 years? Or do we get some issues with characters finally acting and then it’s over? I don’t judge a run for how it influences the next run because that is entirely optional for Marvel. The same way Morrison can’t be blamed for His Magneto not being Magneto.

    For me it’s Maslows hierchary of needs. Characters being written good is one of the first steps. By fumbling that I’m not being able to enjoy whatever else is going on.

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malachi View Post
    In that sense Corona hasn’t been a friend to Hickman. So if the characters start behaving as themselves again does Hickman write that for 2 years?
    The pandemic break really hurt momentum. Then Empyre: X-Men was pretty forgettable and IMO X of Swords was overextended.

  4. #49
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    The attempts to make a distinct Krakoan/mutant culture (and thus survive the inevitable editorial pivot down the road) are coming across as shallow. It’s all top down diktats from the QC and X-Men that are accepted without question by the masses

    There needs to be slice life minis/one shots set on Krakoa showing how the sausage is made

  5. #50
    Praying Member zvrk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    There’s more than nostalgy: they are supposed to be the same characters. Different writers, different artists but the name of the characters, their general appearance… it is the same. The same puppets with a different puppetmaster. There’s something dishonest, here: there’s at minimum a promise of basic continuity… to be almost each time betrayed.
    I'm in favor of the argument that it's more nostalgia than the other factor. Consider this: why doesn't the passage of time come to comic books? Why are Charles and Magneto still pillars of the X-Men world? Why don't the characters die out or fall out of X-life, making way for new ones, fresh blood? Why does Jubilee still have the same colors from the nineties? It is like wearing your favorite teenage outfit into your young adult years...It's suppressing, to me.

    As for supposed to... I kinda agree. But let's take Jean Grey for example: is Jean the same Jean from Stan Lee's run and Clremont's run? Do you know how many ppl cried out in letters page when Christ Claremont boost her up into Phoenix that it's not Jean Grey they grew up with or known? Is Emma the same Emma that Claremont created and the one we have now? Villain at the start, now repping for the good of mutants? Generational gap: one generation wouldn't recognize the characters from their era when compared to today's.

    As for continuity, I agree. But X-Men have 60 years of continuity, writers don't have to acknowledge all of it, so they pick and choose what they like and play with that part. Is it fair? No, but that is like life. We pick and choose the highlights and lowlights of our own lives when doing reflection, while rest is forgotten. It's the human condition.

    But I think what you meant about basic continuity might have been about golden fish memory that writers have nowadays when writing our favs, meaning that what happened three pages ago continuity doesn't matter, and for that the blame game would fall on editors. Their job is to catch the mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by OblivionX33 View Post
    Damn, you really floored me with this one and summed it up perfectly. I totally agree, that because the world changes, the writers will change but so do some readers. But others will not want to change at all within the fanbase and that's where some of the issues start to began to show itself. Creating a impass of ideals, were folks see these characters in certain lights and are used to them reacting or interaction with stories and situations that are consistence (or relatively inconsistent but interesting). So when creators ppl like or may not like come on to do comic book runs, there's a tug of war of creative principles. Where the reader will only, give writers a couple of chances - or fewer - to meet their specific criteria from whatever era that gold standard was established. Making the margin for error a mile wide but an inch deep and we get stuck in this cycle, as these runs get weak supporter and lack in sells than we do this all over again. In shorter and shorter brust since the XOffice has to continue to keep the boat on course.

    Thanks for your response and perspective!
    Damn also, you took my ball, ran and scored!

    You encapsulated perfectly the tug war with fandom and writers. I would just also add that X-office has to take care of the IP, so mostly characters stay visually the same for the profit of crossing over into different mediums. The illusion of change is allowed, not the real one and when you take that and put it onto a new writer, you kinda tie his hands a little: play with toys, and then put them back the way they were.

    Thank you for the spark of discussion and your perspective!
    Last edited by zvrk; 03-28-2021 at 07:53 AM.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zvrk View Post
    As for continuity, I agree. But X-Men have 60 years of continuity, writers don't have to acknowledge all of it, so they pick and choose what they like and play with that part. Is it fair? No, but that is like life. We pick and choose the highlights and lowlights of our own lives when doing reflection, while rest is forgotten. It's the human condition.
    There might be an evolution, a shift… over 60 years but there, there’s a break. And an unexplained break.
    From the beginning, Charles Xavier has been preaching the integration in the human community, mutants and non-mutants together… A cornerstone of his personality.
    And now, U-turn.

    Let’s admit he has changed. Possible. He has spent like… hundreds years with only the company of the Shadow King. Post-traumatic stress.

    But his students have been believing in his dream. It’s why they have stayed with him, fighting all these battles.
    And yet, no problem with the U-turn. No question at all… with all of them. Let’s follow the chief as before.
    I wouldn’t have a problem with Krakoa as long as the X-men were behaving like the X-men, bickering and questioning.
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  7. #52
    Praying Member zvrk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    There might be an evolution, a shift… over 60 years but there, there’s a break. And an unexplained break.
    From the beginning, Charles Xavier has been preaching the integration in the human community, mutants and non-mutants together… A cornerstone of his personality.
    And now, U-turn.

    Let’s admit he has changed. Possible. He has spent like… hundreds years with only the company of the Shadow King. Post-traumatic stress.

    But his students have been believing in his dream. It’s why they have stayed with him, fighting all these battles.
    And yet, no problem with the U-turn. No question at all… with all of them. Let’s follow the chief as before.
    I wouldn’t have a problem with Krakoa as long as the X-men were behaving like the X-men, bickering and questioning.
    Not only that, but also villains all 100 % agreed for Krakoa and came to build a nation. Blindly, with one voice.

    I like to parallel this era with Utopia. Utopia was similar in how everyone blindly followed Scott, except the big blue furball. I guess Hickman follows the same formula, but on a grander scale.

    Something identical happened in Second Genesis: Charlie showed up and recruited X-Men and they followed him just because he said so. History repeated here and they once again follow.

    Am I okay with it? No. It's a plothole I can fall through.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member useridgoeshere's Avatar
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    I'm enjoying it more than anything else since Bendis but I think most of the writers haven't been able to deliver on Hickman's concept. Ewing and Vita are starting strong on SWORD and New Mutants in different ways. Beyond that, I can't think of anyone else who has successfully seized the opportunity.

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member MYCMTSC's Avatar
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    I still love the Krakoa premise but I think more than half of the books are underwhelming. SWORD, X-Factor, and Hellions are keeping this ship afloat with fresh plots and fun character beats. Excalibur, X-Force, Marauders, X-Men, and Cable tend to feel close to a serve but end up falling short.

    Fewer titles for denser books please.

  10. #55
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    It's currently my favourite era of X-Men and up there for me in being one of the better Marvel stories.

    The X-Men have always ranged from being the worst to the best that Marvel puts out, and since AvX, they've been in this weird spot where they were kind of tired and... Nothing. Marvel didn't want to do anything with them because they couldn't make movies of them at the time (and I'm going to be honest with you, Marvel sucked for doing that, they ignored many possible great ideas because they were stubborn).

    I prefer to see the comics looking more into the culture and society they've created rather than the super hero team they always were.
    Then again, I'm a huge Morrison fan over Claremont.
    I think there have been issued with some of the side titles however. X of Swords was probably my favourite event since Secret War, but even then it could have been cut down by a few issues. I think between Empyre and King in Black while in a Pandemic is a bit of overkill.
    I don't think Brisson was a good fit for New Mutants, maybe that could be due to them releasing the first two arcs concurrently, meaning that the story itself becomes broken up, destroying any momentum in the comic.
    I like how Hickman plays the long game, everything is coming together slowly and I can see things that were brought up at the start, starting to now pay off.
    I like the idea of everyone basically being immortal. First of all, death means nothing in comics, so it isn't like there's any thing is lost. Also, it adds some interesting layers such as how they deal with the trauma of dying. That's something which X-Force seems to be exploring.

    I do hope this status quo lasts, I don't want to see it go once Hickman's run ends. If they just end up back in the School then I think the franchise would just come to a stand still.

    X-Men actually seems to be doing something now, which is more than what I can say for the last 10 years

  11. #56
    Incredible Member a moment closer's Avatar
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    There needs to be slice life minis/one shots set on Krakoa showing how the sausage is made
    Absolutely! I've been hoping for this since the beginning! We have these small moments throughout the different titles but it's not enough to satisfy the overall hunger for a slice of life deep-dive perspective from a single character or a few character's perspectives. I'm still holding out. A day in the life of Moira, in seclusion right now, would be far more interesting to me than some of the stuff we're getting.

  12. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFJamie94 View Post
    I like the idea of everyone basically being immortal. First of all, death means nothing in comics, so it isn't like there's any thing is lost. Also, it adds some interesting layers such as how they deal with the trauma of dying.
    Pretty much - instead of coming up with individual convoluted ways to bring a characters back after editorial decides the character has been dead long enough for it to "mean something", we get one blanket convoluted way to bring characters back as a new toy for the writers to play with. Some, I think, are handling it better than others. The issue with Kitty Pryde's failed resurrections in the Maurauders wasn't bad per se, but kind of a let down given how much mystery was built up around it. Most recently X-Factor explored what falls between the cracks when time of death doesn't synch with the latest back-up re: Daken losing the memory that his team cares for and accepts him, and it was nicely affecting. And also with Kyle being briefly unsure if the Northstar he was getting back was really and truly his husband. And over in New Mutants, there's the question of how even when resurrection is supposed to be available to all mutants, there are those - even those who haven't done anything villainous, like Scout and Cosmo - who could be denied it, either pushed to the back of the queue because their deaths weren't deemed worthy enough, or simply left for dead, and it highlights that even in mutant paradise, there are the haves and have-nots. And then there are the unexpected issues, like what happened with poor Rockslide. So yeah, I'm finding the Resurrection Protocols to be pretty interesting, esp. compared to how jaded I was feeling about character deaths prior to HoX/PoX. As for the writers who are overusing it... eh. There are always going to be those who use character death as a cheap gimmick. Nothing new there.

  13. #58
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    I'm okay with it being overused. But I feel like it'll need to be addressed. If we getting People being sent to die essentially, it would be nice to bring it back in the end with "You're killing is, and you have no idea what it's doing to us".

  14. #59
    Incredible Member Rufio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malachi View Post
    Even if there is some twist or reveal about subtle mindcontrol or influence the facts still stand. We have gotten this status quo for close to 2 years. In that sense Corona hasn’t been a friend to Hickman. So if the characters start behaving as themselves again does Hickman write that for 2 years? Or do we get some issues with characters finally acting and then it’s over? I don’t judge a run for how it influences the next run because that is entirely optional for Marvel. The same way Morrison can’t be blamed for His Magneto not being Magneto.

    For me it’s Maslows hierchary of needs. Characters being written good is one of the first steps. By fumbling that I’m not being able to enjoy whatever else is going on.
    Oh man, I would hate if they pulled a Chuck Austin on us and made it all be mind control, even if Krakoa as a country stayed a thing. I’m not saying Krakoa needs to go away (not that you said you said that, I just want it to be said.) I’d just like these characters to act more like themselves.

    I agree with Kingdom X, Corona really hurt momentum. I think, unfortunately, it dealt a big blow to a story that is slowly working it’s way out. I don’t mind a longer story telling style, but I think Corona really hit this at the wrong time. (Not that there was ever a right time for Corona).

    I think Hickman has a great story to tell, I was and still am interested in what Krakoa has to bring us. My problem is the characters personalities got pushed to the side to make this story work. (Why is everyone okay with gladiator death matches again?) I usually don’t expect runs to directly impact the next run coming in but I’d still like for the characters I’m reading about to act like themselves. I’m all for character development - just not when it happens off panel, at that point it is ooc.

    Also going down to Zelena and zvrk’s posts: It hasn’t sat right with me that all these people come together as one so easily, when it should not have been so easy. The character a BIG part of a story and for Hickman to have everyone just blindly coming together and following this makes the setting kinda creepy and cult-like. While I do hate it, I do still follow the stories and I hope that this all comes together. I also agree with king of hybrids, I think there should be (maybe a mini) slice of life comic showcasing life on Krakoa.

    In one of last year’s posts (I can’t remember who said it) someone said that Hickman gets really caught up in world building that he kinda forgets about the characters. It was something like that and I’m not doing it justice, but that post really summed up my feelings on the matter.

    That was not meant to be so long, I apologize. I just wanted to articulate my feelings on that matter.
    Last edited by Rufio; 03-29-2021 at 12:47 AM.
    “Fleeing through the labyrinths with the hordes of the living dead fast upon them;
    Once again they found themselves trapped in front of the abyss.”

  15. #60
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    For those that don't like Hickman's era on X-men, then I believe we're at least half way there.

    If this is following the structure of his Avengers run, then we get an event half way through the run, an event at the end of the run, and then a final event to conclude everything.
    That and Hickman has said he has a 5 year plan for X-men, come September, we would be 3 years in (I'm giving some room for Covid and HOXPOX started in July).
    So we have at least another year and a half until things start coming to a close. So another 20 issues or so.

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