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  1. #631

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    It doesn't need to be every page of every issue but more than a handful of panels throughout the past 2 years would have been nice. Or just like, showing them changing their mind about the dream instead of just Xavier doing it and then everyone else doing the same off screen.

  2. #632
    Incredible Member ermac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    I think Hickman should have concentrated on general prejudice against mutants and on Moiraís past lives, not past writerís mistakes like the Morrison X-Men run.
    Hey, that's an interesting view. What past writer's mistakes do you feel are happening again? What would you change in Hickman's approach?

  3. #633
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamFTF View Post
    But then I wonder if my trouble connecting has more to do with background and age than anything else. While it's probably a supremely different experience for marginalized people, I think for straight white cis males like myself, we tend to connect more with this property when we're teenagers. Because every teenager feels like a freak who is afraid they'll never fit in anywhere. Essentially, you feel like a mutant. These days, as a thirty-something office worker, I sometimes feel like I'm a little too normal, a little too boring, like I fit in a little too well. A little too much of a "flatscan" if you will.
    I would say that if, as a teenager, you feel weirdÖ you realise, some years later, that itís the world that is weird. You have scraped the surface and it is not a stable, immutable world. It could end.

    The X-men werenít about being weird for me. It was about looking beyond the appareances and feeling a sense of fraternity with different people. Itís not out-of-fashion for meÖ like it is for X-menís authors.

  4. #634
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    There is also the fact that you canít just do 20 issues of mutants arguing their ideology. Just because it isnít explicitly shown, does not mean people donít have their reservations. I see people talk a lot about bad writing but fail to address that the things they want to see would be bad writing. Like, if every issue of xmen or whatever book is cyclops going at it with the council then its going to get old really quick. Better to address it when its relevant to the actual story, imo.
    That's fair, however, I'm not asking it to be every issue, and I've conceded that it isn't done enough for my taste. I don't think everyone is picking up every book and this issue should've played a bigger role in the main book, written by the big man himself.

    Gerry Duggan seems to have both fans and detractors so I have no choice but to see for myself what he can do. I genuinely hope to be surprised.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  5. #635
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    I would say that if, as a teenager, you feel weird… you realise, some years later, that it’s the world that is weird. You have scraped the surface and it is not a stable, immutable world. It could end.

    The X-men weren’t about being weird for me. It was about looking beyond the appareances and feeling a sense of fraternity with different people. It’s not out-of-fashion for me… like it is for X-men’s authors.


    I couldn't agree more.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  6. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    There is also the fact that you canít just do 20 issues of mutants arguing their ideology. Just because it isnít explicitly shown, does not mean people donít have their reservations. I see people talk a lot about bad writing but fail to address that the things they want to see would be bad writing. Like, if every issue of xmen or whatever book is cyclops going at it with the council then its going to get old really quick. Better to address it when its relevant to the actual story, imo.
    This is true. Having said that, I don't necessarily think 20 issues of ideological discussion would be bad writing, I do think it wouldn't sell, and whatever anyone says the whole thing has to be sales driven.

    I completely agree that it's best to address it as and when needed, it's about striking a balance, and they're getting it pretty much right because I can feel the undercurrent, and it's implied (or perhaps I'm inferring - which is just as valid) that there's some discontent.

    I don't subscribe to the bad writing attacks, there is some that appears rushed, or cuts things I've felt to be important, but they've got to move the story along. By and large I've found it a breath of fresh air for the line and I'm on board for it lasting a good while longer.

  7. #637
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Big J. and C_Danko...I couldn't agree more.
    I see you and appreciate you both for your insights and perspectives.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Planet Arakko, FOREVER!!!

  8. #638
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Big J. and C_Danko...I couldn't agree more.
    I see you and appreciate you both for your insights and perspectives.
    Thanks for that. I'm happy there are people who have similar views to me. There are times when I read these boards and think I've been buying different comics. Cane_Danko and I seem to have fairly similar views, but I can see the points of many others, and I think most of us have common ground about the line, it's perhaps just how we express ourselves I think.

  9. #639
    Spectacular Member Cane_danko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Joe View Post
    This is true. Having said that, I don't necessarily think 20 issues of ideological discussion would be bad writing, I do think it wouldn't sell, and whatever anyone says the whole thing has to be sales driven.

    I completely agree that it's best to address it as and when needed, it's about striking a balance, and they're getting it pretty much right because I can feel the undercurrent, and it's implied (or perhaps I'm inferring - which is just as valid) that there's some discontent.

    I don't subscribe to the bad writing attacks, there is some that appears rushed, or cuts things I've felt to be important, but they've got to move the story along. By and large I've found it a breath of fresh air for the line and I'm on board for it lasting a good while longer.
    To be fair, i don’t 100% disagree with you on this aspect. I think there is a lot of drama that is building towards this and its an undercurrent if i can call it that. Sometimes, the anti-human sentiment is a bit heavy handed and i can see where that would make people uncomfortable. The thing that separates our view, i think, is i am willing to see where this leads. In fact, i am looking forward to it. I think a lot of our real world ideologies are similar to what is going on in krakoa. Albeit, it is a fantastical sense of what we see happening to not only marginalized people, but to groups who have been persecuted throughout history. I think with all things, it will be easier to judge in retrospect. I was not a die hard hickman fan prior to his xmen run. I never even heard of him, to be honest. I don’t read marvel outside the xmen. I will say xmen had been stagnating for me up until dawn of x, to which i felt like, wow! This is actually something new! And its saying something! The past few years had been back and forth for me between nostalgic and even downright boring. Then this guy hickman comes in and shakes up the whole x-universe. I am here for it. I want to see where it goes. So, yeah, in that sense i am bias. So, if i come off strongly defending it, that is why.

  10. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    To be fair, i donít 100% disagree with you on this aspect. I think there is a lot of drama that is building towards this and its an undercurrent if i can call it that. Sometimes, the anti-human sentiment is a bit heavy handed and i can see where that would make people uncomfortable. The thing that separates our view, i think, is i am willing to see where this leads. In fact, i am looking forward to it. I think a lot of our real world ideologies are similar to what is going on in krakoa. Albeit, it is a fantastical sense of what we see happening to not only marginalized people, but to groups who have been persecuted throughout history. I think with all things, it will be easier to judge in retrospect. I was not a die hard hickman fan prior to his xmen run. I never even heard of him, to be honest. I donít read marvel outside the xmen. I will say xmen had been stagnating for me up until dawn of x, to which i felt like, wow! This is actually something new! And its saying something! The past few years had been back and forth for me between nostalgic and even downright boring. Then this guy hickman comes in and shakes up the whole x-universe. I am here for it. I want to see where it goes. So, yeah, in that sense i am bias. So, if i come off strongly defending it, that is why.
    I think you've spotted, and articulated, our slight difference perfectly, and it is only a slight difference. I've got a few little concerns about the anti-human sentiment, and the worry for me is only that it backs the entire line into a corner. Fortunately, I think the new team, and the upcoming new books are speeding up how my concerns are being looked at.

    Like yourself I trust the writing group and I'm looking forward to where it leads and, again, like yourself, I see real world parallels. I'm from the UK and the whole leaving the EU thing over the past five years or so has hugely polarised political thinking, and has tribalised, if you like, the views of people who were good friends before, but who can't even speak to each other anymore. So, from that viewpoint, I really know how easily opinion can consolidate, so I don't particularly see the entire change of point of view of certain people as being as alien as some fans obviously do.

    I completely agree the line had been going through the motions, and stagnating, for years. It's why I agree with you that this whole direction was a breath of fresh air. From my point of view your defence of the direction isn't a problem, I'm happy to see it.

    I do come from a slightly different viewpoint I suppose, because I do read a lot of other Marvel books, perhaps that's why you and I have our slight differences.

    It's great to have these kinds of discussions where we can differ but not try to belittle each other's points of view, so thanks for your valuable insights.

  11. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Shaw View Post
    Yes, why blame the characters when the true fault lies with the creative forces behind the books?

    Speaking of the mutant massacre, it was Destiny who advised Mystique to leave the tunnels. Freedom Force could have helped their fellow mutants, but bailed.

    Thor was in the tunnels, battled the Marauders, saved Angel, and gave the slain Morlocks a Viking funeral. Leaving the dead bodies would have caused a health hazard.

    Also, Thor has known the O5 since they were kids.





    The Avengers also gave up their UN status to help out in Genosha.



    It was the Avengers that destroyed the Mark II Sentinels.

    The Avengers have legit history of being sympathetic towards the struggles of mutants.

    When the X-Men were on reprint only status, the mutant saga was continued in various Marvel books.

    I think the issue is creators being too territorial with characters & stories which gives the appearance of one franchise being apathetic with another.

    Captain America can endorse tolerance for mutants all the live long day, and that will not stop forces from conspiring against them. Captain America & the FF have publicly endorsed Spider-Man, yet he has been historically viewed with suspicion (although it has been years since I read Spidey).
    More of this please.X-fans keep saying that avengers never help mutants and ignore that they do and when they don't its because
    1-they have stuff going on in their lives
    2-writers don't want them in the comics
    3-Fox and MCU devision doesn't help
    FYI Spidey is doing good with the public but he earned that and the public endorsement didn't have much to play in that

  12. #642
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    That's fair, however, I'm not asking it to be every issue, and I've conceded that it isn't done enough for my taste. I don't think everyone is picking up every book and this issue should've played a bigger role in the main book, written by the big man himself.

    Gerry Duggan seems to have both fans and detractors so I have no choice but to see for myself what he can do. I genuinely hope to be surprised.
    Characters having debates about ideology is very welomed to X-men books. Of course it doesn't need to be the only thing going on in books, that is nosense. One of the better reiewed issues it had a ideological discussion

  13. #643
    Smart & Swift & Violent Kitty&Piotr<3's Avatar
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    I am less interested after the X-Men roster reveal, to be honest. This flagship is going to be so low-energy.
    "Cyclops loves wilted roses because they remind him of dead redheads."
    -Gail

  14. #644
    Spectacular Member Cane_danko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Joe View Post
    I think you've spotted, and articulated, our slight difference perfectly, and it is only a slight difference. I've got a few little concerns about the anti-human sentiment, and the worry for me is only that it backs the entire line into a corner. Fortunately, I think the new team, and the upcoming new books are speeding up how my concerns are being looked at.

    Like yourself I trust the writing group and I'm looking forward to where it leads and, again, like yourself, I see real world parallels. I'm from the UK and the whole leaving the EU thing over the past five years or so has hugely polarised political thinking, and has tribalised, if you like, the views of people who were good friends before, but who can't even speak to each other anymore. So, from that viewpoint, I really know how easily opinion can consolidate, so I don't particularly see the entire change of point of view of certain people as being as alien as some fans obviously do.

    I completely agree the line had been going through the motions, and stagnating, for years. It's why I agree with you that this whole direction was a breath of fresh air. From my point of view your defence of the direction isn't a problem, I'm happy to see it.

    I do come from a slightly different viewpoint I suppose, because I do read a lot of other Marvel books, perhaps that's why you and I have our slight differences.

    It's great to have these kinds of discussions where we can differ but not try to belittle each other's points of view, so thanks for your valuable insights.
    Ha! Yeah, it is good to be able to disagree and still see where the other side is coming from. And man, it sure feels good to let all that out too!

  15. #645
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    To be fair, i don’t 100% disagree with you on this aspect. I think there is a lot of drama that is building towards this and its an undercurrent if i can call it that. Sometimes, the anti-human sentiment is a bit heavy handed and i can see where that would make people uncomfortable. The thing that separates our view, i think, is i am willing to see where this leads. In fact, i am looking forward to it. I think a lot of our real world ideologies are similar to what is going on in krakoa. Albeit, it is a fantastical sense of what we see happening to not only marginalized people, but to groups who have been persecuted throughout history. I think with all things, it will be easier to judge in retrospect. I was not a die hard hickman fan prior to his xmen run. I never even heard of him, to be honest. I don’t read marvel outside the xmen. I will say xmen had been stagnating for me up until dawn of x, to which i felt like, wow! This is actually something new! And its saying something! The past few years had been back and forth for me between nostalgic and even downright boring. Then this guy hickman comes in and shakes up the whole x-universe. I am here for it. I want to see where it goes. So, yeah, in that sense i am bias. So, if i come off strongly defending it, that is why.
    Like Big J...I've always read outside the X-books, and across publishers so there is a wider if not deeper appreciation for this medium but as it pertains to the X-Line and this era specifically...I definitely hear ALL dat!
    Even so...I'm trusting the writing and the direction without any preconceived expectations I might harbour based on what/how much I've read in the past.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Planet Arakko, FOREVER!!!

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