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  1. #646
    BANNED Rang10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitty&Piotr<3 View Post
    I am less interested after the X-Men roster reveal, to be honest. This flagship is going to be so low-energy.
    And it is not even going to be written by hickman

  2. #647
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    I'm pretty sure the destruction of a culture and placing a magical lock on procreation with the goal bring "No more mutants" forfilles at least three of the definitions of a genocide.
    In regards to Scarlet Witch and “no more mutants,” it is completely missing the mass murder component of the genocide. Thus, it’s not a genocide. Also, mutant culture survived that incident just fine. No one can legitimately claim what Scarlet Witch did was mass murder or genocide.

  3. #648
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    Quote Originally Posted by ermac View Post
    Hey, that's an interesting view. What past writer's mistakes do you feel are happening again? What would you change in Hickman's approach?
    Hickman should not have gone into Bendis’ House of M garbage at all.

    It’s trickier for him to avoid Morrison’s Genoshan genocide. Perhaps he should not have made it one of the big reasons behind founding the Krakoan state.

    Also, what would I change in Hickman’s approach? I wouldn’t have had Xavier found a mutant state with some of the worst super baddies Marvel has. I wouldn’t have Xavier mass produce mutants. I wouldn’t have the X-Men enable the mass migration to Earth of a demonic species that hates mankind.
    Last edited by Brian B; 04-18-2021 at 01:35 PM.

  4. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    I'm already over it and ready for it all to be over and for the X-men to move on...Krakoa is limiting and you just know that it will fail sooner or later...and then the X-men will be hated and feared all over again...
    Moving on past nationhood into a frat house is a serious regression that they should stay away from.Unless we have a full Moira life 11 re-set, there is no going back to the school set up

  5. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    Moving on past nationhood into a frat house is a serious regression that they should stay away from.Unless we have a full Moira life 11 re-set, there is no going back to the school set up
    There is if the new movies re-establish it and the comics are forced to follow suit because of editorial hoping for movie synergy effect like so often (which never works), OR because the next editorial or new writers feel like that's what they want to do with the X-men again. Hence back to the old status quo.

    Not to forget the possibility that the people in charge might feel like it's better to keep the heros and the mutant nationhood thingy seperated and the next big retcon just re-establishes Genosha as neutral mutant ground, while the X-men go back to having their own Academy on the side, while working as independent international heros.

    Going back to school is still a very realistic possibility.

    And before it's thrown at me. It's not what i want. It's what i find realisticaly possible given the people in charge of these works of fictions often don't see things like fans do, or have fan ideas based on long outdated versions of the heros. Sometimes they don't even like the work of fiction and form ideas based on what they think will be better for it, regardless of how well it fits past continuity or popular depictions of the characters.

    And let's not even get into the cyclic nature of these perpetual super hero universes, which are never allowed to actualy reach any conclusive point, meaning constant throwbacks to past status quos.
    Last edited by Grunty; 04-18-2021 at 01:55 PM.

  6. #651
    Fantastic Member The92Ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    Hickman should not have gone into Bendis’ House of M garbage at all.

    It’s trickier for him to avoid Morrison’s Genoshan genocide. Perhaps he should not have made it one of the big reasons behind founding the Krakoan state.

    Also, what would I change in Hickman’s approach? I wouldn’t have had Xavier found a mutant state with some of the worst super baddies Marvel has. I wouldn’t have Xavier mass produce mutants. I wouldn’t have the X-Men enable the mass migration to Earth of a demonic species that hates mankind.
    I think that this is quite good and fresh object to have all the mutants at one place and have internal affairs instead of international affairs. If you haven't realized it yet, there is plenty of internal affairs, like Mystique's order to burn Krakoa, and Shadowking converting kids to his "cult" so to speak, or Mr Sinister's own agendas. There is a lot going on under the public face of Krakoa and I think they will expand on that. It is just easier to handle with internal stuffs, like the Inhumans do, than with external, international propaganda or problems.

    Let's not forget that the idea of this issue is to introduce mutants to the human world and have them grow on normal humans. And they've succeeded so far, there is like 50/50 split here, where one half loves and prays mutants as gods and the other half is frightened, and purely hating on the race. Pretty much like white people hate black people in certain countries, regions, etc.

    This is a perfect reflection of the current world, the world is right now separated but with 60/40 cut, instead of 50/50. 60% for the gays, black people and others, and 40% who fear them or feel pure hatred or disgust between them. Don't forget, X-Men comics always reflected the real world even if they are like half-decade behind.

  7. #652
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    Quote Originally Posted by The92Ghost View Post
    I think that this is quite good and fresh object to have all the mutants at one place and have internal affairs instead of international affairs. If you haven't realized it yet, there is plenty of internal affairs, like Mystique's order to burn Krakoa, and Shadowking converting kids to his "cult" so to speak, or Mr Sinister's own agendas. There is a lot going on under the public face of Krakoa and I think they will expand on that. It is just easier to handle with internal stuffs, like the Inhumans do, than with external, international propaganda or problems.

    Let's not forget that the idea of this issue is to introduce mutants to the human world and have them grow on normal humans. And they've succeeded so far, there is like 50/50 split here, where one half loves and prays mutants as gods and the other half is frightened, and purely hating on the race. Pretty much like white people hate black people in certain countries, regions, etc.

    This is a perfect reflection of the current world, the world is right now separated but with 60/40 cut, instead of 50/50. 60% for the gays, black people and others, and 40% who fear them or feel pure hatred or disgust between them. Don't forget, X-Men comics always reflected the real world even if they are like half-decade behind.
    This is very different from real world. No minority on real world has the power that krakoa has

  8. #653
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    More of this please.X-fans keep saying that avengers never help mutants and ignore that they do and when they don't its because
    1-they have stuff going on in their lives
    2-writers don't want them in the comics
    3-Fox and MCU devision doesn't help
    FYI Spidey is doing good with the public but he earned that and the public endorsement didn't have much to play in that
    Cap and Wasp also had a real problem with the Pentagon dispatching Sentinels during the Kang War. Though, it's not the best example because the reason Cap brings up isn't "they're made for killing mutants" but "they keep turning on their masters". Mind you, this is completely true and something people overlook regarding Sentinels all the time. They turned on Trask in their very first appearance. And the future from Days of Future Past wasn't just a future where mutants were hunted. It was a future ruled by Sentinels.

    And the Avengers came to help Jean against Cassandra Nova in X-Men Red.

    I kind of wonder sometimes if maybe a difference in perception is also a factor. There's often a certain amount of . . . victimhood . . . built into the X-Men. A "reluctant hero" streak. So, the X-Men might view their reason for fighting as "We have to fight for mutantkind because no one else will." Whereas the Avengers might just view the X-Men as a top flight superhero team and specialists in mutant affairs, so they just view it as "We don't have to focus on mutant related situations because the X-Men have this on lock". If I were to sum it up as an imaginary conversation . . .

    Kitty Pryde: "People act like you Avengers are the greatest heroes on the planet, but don't you Avengers ever help mutants?!"

    Captain America: "They already have the best help they could possibly get. The X-Men."

  9. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    There is if the new movies re-establish it and the comics are forced to follow suit because of editorial hoping for movie synergy effect like so often (which never works), OR because the next editorial or new writers feel like that's what they want to do with the X-men again. Hence back to the old status quo.

    Not to forget the possibility that the people in charge might feel like it's better to keep the heros and the mutant nationhood thingy seperated and the next big retcon just re-establishes Genosha as neutral mutant ground, while the X-men go back to having their own Academy on the side, while working as independent international heros.

    Going back to school is still a very realistic possibility.

    And before it's thrown at me. It's not what i want. It's what i find realisticaly possible given the people in charge of these works of fictions often don't see things like fans do, or have fan ideas based on long outdated versions of the heros. Sometimes they don't even like the work of fiction and form ideas based on what they think will be better for it, regardless of how well it fits past continuity or popular depictions of the characters.

    And let's not even get into the cyclic nature of these perpetual super hero universes, which are never allowed to actualy reach any conclusive point, meaning constant throwbacks to past status quos.

    We can have some mutants on a mansion and some mutants on krakoa. On Schism there was utopia and the mansion, bendis had Mansion and the old abandoned x-weapon facility
    Last edited by Rang10; 04-18-2021 at 06:59 PM.

  10. #655
    Spectacular Member Cane_danko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The92Ghost View Post
    I think that this is quite good and fresh object to have all the mutants at one place and have internal affairs instead of international affairs. If you haven't realized it yet, there is plenty of internal affairs, like Mystique's order to burn Krakoa, and Shadowking converting kids to his "cult" so to speak, or Mr Sinister's own agendas. There is a lot going on under the public face of Krakoa and I think they will expand on that. It is just easier to handle with internal stuffs, like the Inhumans do, than with external, international propaganda or problems.

    Let's not forget that the idea of this issue is to introduce mutants to the human world and have them grow on normal humans. And they've succeeded so far, there is like 50/50 split here, where one half loves and prays mutants as gods and the other half is frightened, and purely hating on the race. Pretty much like white people hate black people in certain countries, regions, etc.

    This is a perfect reflection of the current world, the world is right now separated but with 60/40 cut, instead of 50/50. 60% for the gays, black people and others, and 40% who fear them or feel pure hatred or disgust between them. Don't forget, X-Men comics always reflected the real world even if they are like half-decade behind.
    Not sure where you are getting these figures lol sounds arbitrary

  11. #656
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    In regards to Scarlet Witch and “no more mutants,” it is completely missing the mass murder component of the genocide. Thus, it’s not a genocide. Also, mutant culture survived that incident just fine. No one can legitimately claim what Scarlet Witch did was mass murder or genocide.
    Didn't the books establish that there were mutants who lost their ability to fly while in the air and other similar situations? There's no way that there weren't some fatalities, although it doesn't seem possible that it led to genocide, I'll give you that. I guess it depends how mutantdom is viewed; if removing mutations can be considered like forced conversion therapy. Of course, then we get into the entire relationship between how closely mutantdom correlates to either race or sexuality or identity and that's an entire other issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by The92Ghost View Post
    I think that this is quite good and fresh object to have all the mutants at one place and have internal affairs instead of international affairs. If you haven't realized it yet, there is plenty of internal affairs, like Mystique's order to burn Krakoa, and Shadowking converting kids to his "cult" so to speak, or Mr Sinister's own agendas. There is a lot going on under the public face of Krakoa and I think they will expand on that. It is just easier to handle with internal stuffs, like the Inhumans do, than with external, international propaganda or problems.

    Let's not forget that the idea of this issue is to introduce mutants to the human world and have them grow on normal humans. And they've succeeded so far, there is like 50/50 split here, where one half loves and prays mutants as gods and the other half is frightened, and purely hating on the race. Pretty much like white people hate black people in certain countries, regions, etc.

    This is a perfect reflection of the current world, the world is right now separated but with 60/40 cut, instead of 50/50. 60% for the gays, black people and others, and 40% who fear them or feel pure hatred or disgust between them. Don't forget, X-Men comics always reflected the real world even if they are like half-decade behind.
    Neither one of those is a good thing.

    The X-Men should be dealing with the world, they live in it after all.
    Last edited by Hizashi; 04-18-2021 at 06:43 PM.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  12. #657
    Incredible Member kevinism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Didn't the books establish that there were mutants who lost their ability to fly while in the air and other similar situations? There's no way that there weren't some fatalities, although it doesn't seem possible that it led to genocide, I'll give you that. I guess it depends how mutantdom is viewed; if removing mutations can be considered like forced conversion therapy. Of course, then we get into the entire relationship between how closely mutantdom correlates to either race or sexuality or identity and that's an entire other issue.



    Neither one of those is a good thing.

    The X-Men should be dealing with the world, they live in it after all.

    From millions to less than 200...

  13. #658
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevinism View Post
    From millions to less than 200...
    I was at least only referring to the removal of mutations, which do not exactly correlate to a race, sexuality, etc. We don't know the exact number of deaths, so that specific case isn't black and white.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  14. #659
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevinism View Post
    From millions to less than 200...
    I actually wanted for the movies to use the Thanos snap as an M-Day scenario of Wanda's 'No more Mutants' that would create a mystery why even after Iron Man snapped back the mutant numbers were not reconstituted.Have them be like 200 worldwide, explaining that they are looking out for their lost loved ones.Maybe bring celestials into the why they were not restored post 'snap'. There is opportunity here

  15. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    There is if the new movies re-establish it and the comics are forced to follow suit because of editorial hoping for movie synergy effect like so often (which never works), OR because the next editorial or new writers feel like that's what they want to do with the X-men again. Hence back to the old status quo.

    Not to forget the possibility that the people in charge might feel like it's better to keep the heros and the mutant nationhood thingy seperated and the next big retcon just re-establishes Genosha as neutral mutant ground, while the X-men go back to having their own Academy on the side, while working as independent international heros.

    Going back to school is still a very realistic possibility.

    And before it's thrown at me. It's not what i want. It's what i find realisticaly possible given the people in charge of these works of fictions often don't see things like fans do, or have fan ideas based on long outdated versions of the heros. Sometimes they don't even like the work of fiction and form ideas based on what they think will be better for it, regardless of how well it fits past continuity or popular depictions of the characters.

    And let's not even get into the cyclic nature of these perpetual super hero universes, which are never allowed to actualy reach any conclusive point, meaning constant throwbacks to past status quos.
    I don't mind what movies do,as they always do their own thing and marginally tie their stories to comic plot lines.What would be weird for me is for comics to go back to the mansion set up.For me personally it is too nostalgic (with the benefit of hindsight in relation to what Hickman has done) but also a serious regression from the current reality of them being United with a nation,language and culture.I think what they should do in comics is through some time travel contrivance have Moira go back to a point in life X before she is born to die in the past and because her death happens before her birth that is yet to come(time travel loophole) ensures that this continuity can't be undone.While also allowing for a life 11 reincarnation happening side by side with her life 10 birth creating a separate universe.The comics will be able to tell stories as per life 11(mansion regression) and life 10(Krakoa United or divided but still a reality).That is the best way forward than a complete wipe of the slate to take us back.
    Last edited by Rev9; 04-19-2021 at 05:13 AM.

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