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  1. #811
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Personally...I've always wanted the mutants to stand up for themselves and be proactive.
    Even as far back as the Claremont days, they always seemed to be reacting to outside threats. And while now they still are reacting to an extent (and why I got quickly bored with and dropped X-Force), there is a sense of what the younglings call "agency" in their stance and an attitude that says we are no longer willing to sit idly by and have to world tell us where we must live or who to be.
    Without some support from the hero community and/or humans a proactive stance would have been used by enemies of mutantkind to stoke fear and hatred. The initial approach was the right one, the problem is that the X-franchise can't move to the next logical step because it would radically change the X-Men. That next step, as I've said again and again, is actual integration - mutants becoming largely accepted/tolerated/understood and a cooperative effort between mutants and humans to take care of mutants with powers that are a danger to themselves or others, and villainous mutants as well.

    How many humans are actually militantly anti-mutant? How many would actually want to work with the X-Men to make a better world for everyone? Surely there are hundreds of thousands of humans who are either related to a mutant or have a close relationship with one, and a large percentage of them must want a safe world for that person or person(s). The idea that all of humanity must be deeply against mutants and not that many are just being led by The Powers That Be doesn't work for me.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  2. #812
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    I don't think either of these things are true, especially the first. X-Men fans constantly insinuating that criticism of the X-Men franchise = they must be real life bigots to non-fictional minority groups has always been nuts.
    Yeah, there's no way for me to square this, I'm always a little surprised when I see a conversation headed in this direction.
    Does it need doing?
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    Then it will be done.

  3. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Why the qualifiers? Utopia was a nation sanctuary in a more dire situation than the current one, yet it is denigrated where this one is applauded.

    Genosha didn't have a government populated and run by X-Men, did it? If Genoshan survivors setup Krakoa, I could buy this.
    Utopia wasn't a nation. It was just a refuge for the last remaining mutants, but it was still a part of the USA. It wasn't any different from the Xavier Institute apart from being on small island.

    Genosha, as far as I remember, was a rogue state, and it only had few powerful mutants to protect it like Magneto and Polaris.

    Krakoa is an independent nation, recognized by most countries and protected by pretty much every powerful mutant on the planet. The X-Men now are not simply heroes, they are protectors of a nation and some of them are even part of its governing body, so it is only natural that they don't act the same way as in the past, because circumstances are different now. For example, when in recent issue of CotA Storm talked with the Avengers, she wasn't just a super-hero talking with other super-heroes with some of whom she was on the same team in the past, she was a representative of another, independent nation and as such she have no right to put her personal feelings before the interests of nation.

  4. #814
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    That next step, as I've said again and again, is actual integration - mutants becoming largely accepted/tolerated/understood and a cooperative effort between mutants and humans to take care of mutants with powers that are a danger to themselves or others, and villainous mutants as well.
    When you consider the difficulties groups of humans are facing to find peace and common ground, it makes more unlikely that mutants and simple humans could be integrated. On the paper, it sounds wonderful, but on the detail, it arises a lot of issues… telepaths, people who goes through walls… legally, it would be a nightmare and you are not sure you have covered everything, because a new power could appear… and people who have capacities want to use them and not be restrained. Not be denied a part of themselves.

    The X-men worked because we knew they will behave. We trusted them. Laws are useless for people who are respectful. We weren’t afraid of them and we couldn’t understand why people would feel frightened by them.

    I think it’s a mistake to consider the X-men are a blueprint for the mutants.

    Krakoa is a good idea for the humans. It doesn’t mean all the mutants should be send there but it’s certainly a good place for mutants who don’t want to live among the humans and those the humans don’t know what to do with. So I don’t know why the humans would be against Krakoa… as long as Krakoa keeps a low profile. But Xavier didn’t do that…

  5. #815
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harasar View Post
    Utopia wasn't a nation. It was just a refuge for the last remaining mutants, but it was still a part of the USA. It wasn't any different from the Xavier Institute apart from being on small island.

    Genosha, as far as I remember, was a rogue state, and it only had few powerful mutants to protect it like Magneto and Polaris.

    Krakoa is an independent nation, recognized by most countries and protected by pretty much every powerful mutant on the planet. The X-Men now are not simply heroes, they are protectors of a nation and some of them are even part of its governing body, so it is only natural that they don't act the same way as in the past, because circumstances are different now. For example, when in recent issue of CotA Storm talked with the Avengers, she wasn't just a super-hero talking with other super-heroes with some of whom she was on the same team in the past, she was a representative of another, independent nation and as such she have no right to put her personal feelings before the interests of nation.
    It was narratively and functionally a nation. Status is all that could be gained from recognition by the rest of the world. Utopia was more a nation than Jean's short-lived theoretical nation.

    There are large differences, but I don't think those are the important ones. With Utopia, the X-Men didn't stop protecting the world at large, not even after Schism, they worked with the hero community, they fought for coexistence. All of that despite the more desperate situation they found themselves in.

    I think my issue is that we went from A to C, and some might be okay with that but I want to see B. Circumstances being different is fine, but the characters are being antagonistic in virtually every interaction.
    Does it need doing?
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    Then it will be done.

  6. #816
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    When you consider the difficulties groups of humans are facing to find peace and common ground, it makes more unlikely that mutants and simple humans could be integrated. On the paper, it sounds wonderful, but on the detail, it arises a lot of issues… telepaths, people who goes through walls… legally, it would be a nightmare and you are not sure you have covered everything, because a new power could appear… and people who have capacities want to use them and not be restrained. Not be denied a part of themselves.

    The X-men worked because we knew they will behave. We trusted them. Laws are useless for people who are respectful. We weren’t afraid of them and we couldn’t understand why people would feel frightened by them.

    I think it’s a mistake to consider the X-men are a blueprint for the mutants.

    Krakoa is a good idea for the humans. It doesn’t mean all the mutants should be send there but it’s certainly a good place for mutants who don’t want to live among the humans and those the humans don’t know what to do with. So I don’t know why the humans would be against Krakoa… as long as Krakoa keeps a low profile. But Xavier didn’t do that…
    These things don't have to be mutually exclusive, Krakoa for the mutants who want to thrive in their mutantdom to its fullest extent; integration for those who only like generate water from their fingertips or something and want to stay in their home countries. I don't think the task of regulation for mutants is insurmountable, there seem to be general categories to mutations and having mutants working on those regulations would keep them honest.

    Xavier went too aggressive for sure.
    Does it need doing?
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    Then it will be done.

  7. #817
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    Nobody is forcing mutants to live on Krakoa. It’s been a plot point in several books. We are getting an X-Men title that deals with the team protecting the planet, which they already did in XoS. Also being a recognized nation is a huge plot point to Hickman’s story, it’s not fair to handwave it and say it’s not. There are multiple books dealing with other countries not recognizing Krakoa’s sovereignty.
    You brought back Wolverine

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  8. #818
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Asking Krakoa to keep a low profile is like asking Wakanda to keep a low profile. Why would anyone ask that of their country? What's the point of asking that?
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Planet Arakko, FOREVER!!!

  9. #819
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    I think krakoa's biggest issue besides the obvious evil people who are obviously evil and still evil, and Xavier/Magneto hubris

    Is that for all the data pages and glitz and glam... Krakoa is still really ill defined as a country. We've several important organizations and outside of S.W.O.R.D. we only kinda know how they work. Hellfire's better than the rest since it at least has the structure down (even if it's way too vague about it. Then you got the council, the captains, Light house and ESPECIALLY x-force.

    It's very haphazard.

  10. #820
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    I would argue that it isn't really haphazard...it's just that not everything has been 100% "fleshed out" in the respective books...yet.
    As nations go...Krakoa is still very much in its infancy and with respects to its Governance, nothing is officially and permanently set in stone.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Planet Arakko, FOREVER!!!

  11. #821
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    I'm really pleased with the release of Way Of X this week, it's started to look towards what I think really needs to be addressed. The whole governance system and the political set up on the island has needed to be explored for quite some time now. I realise this book was supposed to be released earlier, hopefully it points the way to more exploration of this.

    I also think that the new X-Men team, being independent of the council, could help in this respect too. We're seeing some stuff, The Shadow King for instance, representing possible opposition to the council, there's the whole Mystique thing to sort out, otherwise she could bring the whole thing down.

    I really would like to see more exploration of the political side of Krakoa, but I realise that it would be really difficult to make a book dedicated more to that side of the island life sell.

    The thing is, the whole world would be more believable if there was a whole system you could kind of depend on. Of course it might well be the council are putting together an entire system that we've been told nothing about, and laws have been introduced that we don't know about yet. I'd like to see more exploration of the council actually, they've been together quite some time and don't really seem to be doing a great deal about introducing a workable system to run a country.

  12. #822
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakoa View Post
    Honestly think that a lot of the backlash to this era comes from people who are uncomfortable with the idea of what is basically a persecuted minority stopping asking for handouts and instead banding together for a show of strength.
    Bruh this sh!t the hardest truth lol


    Quote Originally Posted by Krakoa View Post
    That was the whole thing about the amnesty in HoXPoX though -- the reason these mutants did things was often due to unfair human laws & persecution. Mutants have never been given a fair shot so we can't hold them accountable.
    Zaaaamn this one hits hard as well. I see people on this board leaping at the chance to excuse the Pretenders Genocide wave. And in the same post demonizing mutants like Mystique/Magneto hell even Apocalypse who suffered greatly at the hands of humans decided enough was enough and fought back

    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    I don't think either of these things are true, especially the first. X-Men fans constantly insinuating that criticism of the X-Men franchise = they must be real life bigots to non-fictional minority groups has always been nuts.
    Ehhh if it walks like a duck, Quacks like a duck
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  13. #823
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    It was narratively and functionally a nation. Status is all that could be gained from recognition by the rest of the world. Utopia was more a nation than Jean's short-lived theoretical nation.

    There are large differences, but I don't think those are the important ones. With Utopia, the X-Men didn't stop protecting the world at large, not even after Schism, they worked with the hero community, they fought for coexistence. All of that despite the more desperate situation they found themselves in.

    I think my issue is that we went from A to C, and some might be okay with that but I want to see B. Circumstances being different is fine, but the characters are being antagonistic in virtually every interaction.
    Utopia wasn't treated like a nation by other people, it had no status or recognition. I think comparing Utopia, Genosha and Krakoa, is like comparing real world micronation, some small country like Estonia, and a big influential country like China. Their status, influence and treatment is completely different.

    And any antagonistic behavior I can remember was based on the fact that they are a strong nation now, other people and heroes can't just ignore them or treat them like in past, because now every mutant have a strong country backing them up. But many super-heroes are portrayed with a lack of respect for this new situation and so they get the bad reaction from X-Men. Like that scene when Dr. Strange teleported to Krakoa to talk with Magik and Cable told him that he has no right to be there. To me, it wasn't because Strange is a human, it was because he trespassed other nation's territory and then handwaved it with "I have more important things to do than play by your rules" behavior. So it is only natural that he wasn't welcomed.

    Although I would also like to see some prequel mini-series, or even one-shot, showing more about how exactly Krakoa was established and how various members of the X-Men reacted to it and decided to join it.

  14. #824
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Asking Krakoa to keep a low profile is like asking Wakanda to keep a low profile. Why would anyone ask that of their country? What's the point of asking that?
    They're almost 3 years in publishing wise. They should really be further along than that. Especially when SWORD managed to do it in 1 issue.

  15. #825
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    I don't think either of these things are true, especially the first. X-Men fans constantly insinuating that criticism of the X-Men franchise = they must be real life bigots to non-fictional minority groups has always been nuts.
    It honestly makes discourse about the X-Men nearly impossible. Having assumptions before engaging in any conversation greatly demeans any chance of being open to opposing opinions or perspectives. For being books that tackle complex concepts, the discussions about them tend to go in one direction a majority of the time and that's a bit unfortunate.
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