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  1. #871
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    Can you clarify what you mean? Let's use America as the example country just to keep it simple, what exactly are you suggesting America is trading for these drugs? They certainly aren't paying for them.
    When America, through the government or independent humanitarian efforts provides drugs or support to other countries it's with the expectation of nothing in return (at least at face value in the government's case). Krakoa is trading these drugs to America in exchange for recognition on the world stage, it's an admittedly peaceful way of achieving the same thing NK tries to do with military arms and threatening it's neighbor. I'm not saying it's a bad or evil thing, just that it's not altruistic and shouldn't be presented as such - Krakoa certainly doesn't make that attempt.

    The truth is that Krakoa has effectively made nearly all other first world countries second world now, and America and Europe at large have to be stressing about that, that's why it's a trade to recognize Krakoa on the world stage. It's actually an interesting development, I'm not knocking it beyond how it's framed sometimes.
    Does it need doing?
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    Then it will be done.

  2. #872
    Spectacular Member Cane_danko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    When America, through the government or independent humanitarian efforts provides drugs or support to other countries it's with the expectation of nothing in return (at least at face value in the government's case). Krakoa is trading these drugs to America in exchange for recognition on the world stage, it's an admittedly peaceful way of achieving the same thing NK tries to do with military arms and threatening it's neighbor. I'm not saying it's a bad or evil thing, just that it's not altruistic and shouldn't be presented as such - Krakoa certainly doesn't make that attempt.

    The truth is that Krakoa has effectively made nearly all other first world countries second world now, and America and Europe at large have to be stressing about that, that's why it's a trade to recognize Krakoa on the world stage. It's actually an interesting development, I'm not knocking it beyond how it's framed sometimes.
    This. They are going to lean in heavily on this aspect in hellfire gala. They are also being super aggressive in this regards with madripoor which will be interesting.

  3. #873
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Why in the Goddess' name would anyone expect Krakoa to have life-saving medication and not offer it for Global/Political position if in the end that position guarantees a (small) measure of security from persecution and a great deal of power to defend themselves (the real reasons behind the trade-off)?

    Why should they be altruistic in their gift-giving? Knowing the value of what they possess, why should they not ask for compensation?
    To prove what? That they are the bigger heroes? That they truly care for all of humanity?

    They've saved said Humanity countless number of times, at the cost of their lives on a few occasions. But clearly, in the MU that does not count for anything. Because they're still targeted and persecuted as an entire race (not individuals, mind you) by certain governments. Humanity, generally speaking, still does care for them.

    Mutant children are being incarcerated and tested on...how can they NOT use every ounce of leverage they have to correct that (one of many) atrocity perpetrated against their innocent?
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa and Arakko, FOREVER!!!

  4. #874
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    When America, through the government or independent humanitarian efforts provides drugs or support to other countries it's with the expectation of nothing in return (at least at face value in the government's case). Krakoa is trading these drugs to America in exchange for recognition on the world stage, it's an admittedly peaceful way of achieving the same thing NK tries to do with military arms and threatening it's neighbor. I'm not saying it's a bad or evil thing, just that it's not altruistic and shouldn't be presented as such - Krakoa certainly doesn't make that attempt.

    The truth is that Krakoa has effectively made nearly all other first world countries second world now, and America and Europe at large have to be stressing about that, that's why it's a trade to recognize Krakoa on the world stage. It's actually an interesting development, I'm not knocking it beyond how it's framed sometimes.
    Maybe if they are giving it to a third world country but the US definitely leverages its drug and resources to those where it can make a profit and/or political gain and the same is true in reverse. For example, its not a one way exchange with China and the US

  5. #875
    Spectacular Member Cane_danko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Maybe if they are giving it to a third world country but the US definitely leverages its drug and resources to those where it can make a profit and/or political gain and the same is true in reverse. For example, its not a one way exchange with China and the US
    I mean, the usa gouges its medicine against its own citizens. It’s not even a comparison. Krakoa is doing it because they need leverage but they have to appear altruistic given their nature of being “superior” to humans. They don’t want to seem threatening and the medicines are a double edged sword in they accomplish that as well as gives humans a reason to love mutants instead of fear them. Its other national leaders that are the problem as they see krakoa nothing more than a destabilizing force in the world. They are just stuck in the old way of thinking and the mutants have finally adapted to meet that challenge head on.

  6. #876
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    I mean, the usa gouges its medicine against its own citizens. It’s not even a comparison. Krakoa is doing it because they need leverage but they have to appear altruistic given their nature of being “superior” to humans. They don’t want to seem threatening and the medicines are a double edged sword in they accomplish that as well as gives humans a reason to love mutants instead of fear them. Its other national leaders that are the problem as they see krakoa nothing more than a destabilizing force in the world. They are just stuck in the old way of thinking and the mutants have finally adapted to meet that challenge head on.
    ...Why X-Men #4 was such an excellent read.
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 04-26-2021 at 06:40 AM.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa and Arakko, FOREVER!!!

  7. #877

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    That's also definitely not what the phrase "double edged sword" means

  8. #878
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Maybe if they are giving it to a third world country but the US definitely leverages its drug and resources to those where it can make a profit and/or political gain and the same is true in reverse. For example, its not a one way exchange with China and the US
    As a citizen of a "third-world" island nation/region...not even then. There's always recompense, in some form.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa and Arakko, FOREVER!!!

  9. #879
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    Personally anyone who claims mutants not allowing humans into their home is a form of racism is what makes me question them. Are they for open borders? Do they not believe in immigration law? Would they leave all their doors unlocked all the time? I mean if mutants were letting in super powered humans and not baseline humans then they may have a point... but...

    Oh and when they want to see the other side all the time in mutant stories but on the human side of the shared universe it would take too much time or they never hound that side for a book or mini showing human relations to mutants.

    LOL thinking about it further that would be like asking why don't we see more of Red Skull story or motivation in a Captain America book. lol
    Last edited by jwatson; 04-26-2021 at 06:49 AM.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  10. #880
    Spectacular Member Cane_danko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    That's also definitely not what the phrase "double edged sword" means
    My point remains valid despite my misuse of a metaphor.

  11. #881
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    This. They are going to lean in heavily on this aspect in hellfire gala. They are also being super aggressive in this regards with madripoor which will be interesting.
    Yep, just because I've been talking about my issues with this era doesn't mean that I can't see that there are interesting concepts to explore. This is one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Why in the Goddess' name would anyone expect Krakoa to have life-saving medication and not offer it for Global/Political position if in the end that position guarantees a (small) measure of security from persecution and a great deal of power to defend themselves (the real reasons behind the trade-off)?

    Why should they be altruistic in their gift-giving? Knowing the value of what they possess, why should they not ask for compensation?
    To prove what? That they are the bigger heroes? That they truly care for all of humanity?

    They've saved said Humanity countless number of times, at the cost of their lives on a few occasions. But clearly, in the MU that does not count for anything. Because they're still targeted and persecuted as an entire race (not individuals, mind you) by certain governments. Humanity, generally speaking, still does care for them.

    Mutant children are being incarcerated and tested on...how can they NOT use every ounce of leverage they have to correct that (one of many) atrocity perpetrated against their innocent?
    If this is in response to my point, I simply didn't want their action misconstrued as altruistic or free; it's a political move and one that makes sense.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  12. #882
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Maybe if they are giving it to a third world country but the US definitely leverages its drug and resources to those where it can make a profit and/or political gain and the same is true in reverse. For example, its not a one way exchange with China and the US
    Right, I'm not saying that doesn't happen.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  13. #883
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    I mean, the usa gouges its medicine against its own citizens. It’s not even a comparison. Krakoa is doing it because they need leverage but they have to appear altruistic given their nature of being “superior” to humans. They don’t want to seem threatening and the medicines are a double edged sword in they accomplish that as well as gives humans a reason to love mutants instead of fear them. Its other national leaders that are the problem as they see krakoa nothing more than a destabilizing force in the world. They are just stuck in the old way of thinking and the mutants have finally adapted to meet that challenge head on.
    That's another thing though, Krakoa is a destabilizing force and there will be consequences good and bad. Krakoa is literally an overnight country that has made all other countries drop a rank and left itself as the only first world country (along with maybe Wakanda and Latveria)
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  14. #884
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane_danko View Post
    Xavier has good reason to change his personality. You might not like it or agree with it but it makes perfect sense and it works. It also adds a layer of humanity to him as he is not this perfect christ like figure. Which, to be fair, he never really was. In fact, there have been a score of things he has done in the past that make him a crappy figure head. He had a dream that was idealistic but really it was those around him that aspired to that dream that should get the credit as he would abandon that dream whenever the opportunity presented itself. Which it all boiled down to who was writing at the time. Hickman, at least, gives him an aura of mystery and intrigue which he has been sorely lacking.
    How easy do you think it’s to change a personality? I’m still the person I was ten, twenty years ago. Small modifications there and there but nothing life shattering. People are reluctant to change, even when they should… A change so complete is not convincing. Easier to think that the writer has nothing understood of Xavier’s personality or he doesn’t care.

  15. #885
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Personally anyone who claims mutants not allowing humans into their home is a form of racism is what makes me question them. Are they for open borders? Do they not believe in immigration law? Would they leave all their doors unlocked all the time? I mean if mutants were letting in super powered humans and not baseline humans then they may have a point... but...
    Laws based on nationality not race.

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