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  1. #31
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    This travesty of a show is on its way to ruin B-C list Batman villains like Black Mask after having ruined Hush.

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Please, and you don't get to make constant excuses about "external forces".
    I do when they keep happening. And they have. Do you think that all those things I listed just, what, didn't happen or something?

    Also, I strongly doubt the majority of Batman/Batwoman or comic book fans who would watch this show are also basketball fans thus the crossover audience I think is rather small (if it exists at all), call it a hunch on my part applying basic logic.
    You're severely underestimating how popular college basketball in general and March Madness specifically is, especially since they had a hiatus last year. The Sweet 16 games, including the ones played last Sunday, had the best viewership of that section of the tournament since 1993.

    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    This travesty of a show is on its way to ruin B-C list Batman villains like Black Mask after having ruined Hush.
    How were either of them ruined?
    Last edited by Caivu; 04-03-2021 at 03:57 PM.
    Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
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  3. #33
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    ....How were either of them ruined?
    Okay, I'll bite (see your previous reply to me) -

    If "live-ratings" aren't important to the CW what metric is: DVR views, streaming views, replay views? And, where do I find this data? I suspect it is lower than it was last season it might be below the network and/or show type average as well.

    PS "March Madness" is indeed popular but where is the evidence comic book fans would rather watch such games rather than a live-action series based on a character or characters they like? This is a niche market full of I hate to say it but geeks (for lack of a better term) who tend to shy away from sports. This is why I doubt crossover fans are a major factor for this or any other comic book-inspired TV property.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Okay, I'll bite (see your previous reply to me) -

    If "live-ratings" aren't important to the CW what metric is: DVR views, streaming views, replay views? And, where do I find this data? I suspect it is lower than it was last season it might be below the network and/or show type average as well.
    Streaming is what they most care about, as I understand it. That's either through their own app or through other services like Netflix and HBOMax. That viewing information isn't public, but it's still very successful:

    For people without a cable subscription who want to watch Riverdale, All American, Batwoman, and more, The CW’s free, ad-supported app is an easy option. On January 18th, the app saw approximately 36,000 installs in the US App Store and Google Play, according to SensorTower. That’s seven times as high as the week before it, a spokesperson for SensorTower added.

    Like most things in the entertainment industry these days, some of the answers may lie in Netflix and streaming-at-large. After many of those shows air their season finales, they end up on Netflix about a week later — and having people discover series via the streamer has created a Netflix Effect, according to CW chairman Mark Pedowitz. Just last week, Pedowitz told Variety that its free, ad-supported CW streaming platform “has been enormously successful for us,” although he didn’t say exactly how many viewers the app was actually drawing. Pedowitz added that The CW has seen “great increases in Batwoman, Nancy Drew, and Stargirl in terms of what we would have done in a rolling five [most recent five episodes of a season that aired on TV] for Netflix.”

    A couple of important notes about The CW: it’s not a ratings juggernaut. Compared to other cable channels — and the big networks — The CW isn’t competing as a heavyweight contender week after week. In 2016, however, Netflix made a deal with The CW to carry a number of its shows. In international territories, those shows (like Riverdale) were labeled Netflix originals. Pedowitz claimed in 2019 that having the Netflix deal “gave the chance for the CW to breathe.” By 2017, Pedowitz pointed to the Netflix deal for Riverdale’s stronger second season start.
    https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/19/2...erdale-netflix
    Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
    Fan of: Batman, Cassandra Cain, Wonder Woman, Silk, Stephanie Brown, Captain America, Hellcat, Renee Montoya, Gotham Central, King Shark
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    Other likes: Low, Hush, Arkham Asylum: ASHoSE, Watchmen, A-Force, Bombshells, Grayson, Unfollow



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  5. #35
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    Streaming is what they most care about, as I understand it. That's either through their own app or through other services like Netflix and HBOMax. That viewing information isn't public, but it's still very successful.
    I'm always highly skeptical of numbers that aren't made public. I recall a few cases in recent years in which streaming services gave the impresses their numbers were much higher than was later revealed, once the truth became public knowledge these services accordingly suffered the wrath of investors.

    Also, isn't that article dated January 19th of this year right as Season Two started to air? If so, I doubt it incorporates recent data. Batwoman was doing much better last season there is no denying that much, so, yeah what is stated there would make sense in such a context.
    Last edited by Celgress; 04-03-2021 at 04:50 PM.
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  6. #36
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    That might make sense... in the comics, both names belong to Bette Kane, Mary's counterpart. Kate could take one codename and Mary the other.
    Well, thematically it could fit, depending on if she gets a redemption arc - Flamebird (Phoenix) = rebirth. Although, arguably The Question might work even better - faceless mask, and the question marks, working with identity issues.

    So far the setup seems to largely follow the Red Hood/Arkham Knight storyline, with two main points of difference (besides it being Kate instead of Jason that is) - firstly Kate wasn't a sidekick but the main hero, and secondly Jason wasn't brainwashed but instead angry at being forgotten and replaced.

    In both cases a hero was removed from their mantle so that writer's could push a new and less angry/brooding character with a more light-hearted/"likeable" hero to take their place. Also, in both cases simply removing the previous hero doesn't seem to have been enough, for whatever reason - they have to be abducted, and tortured/held-captive over an extended period of time (think it might have been days for Jason, but seems to have been months for Kate).

    In some versions of the story Jason is also victim-blamed for his own suffering, but as to whether that happens with TV-Kate is yet to be seen. Jason, and presumably Kate via brainwashing, also go on to be villains for a time - so as to further cement the new hero with the mantle and prevent the previous hero from ever holding that position again.

  7. #37
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    .....In some versions of the story Jason is also victim-blamed for his own suffering, but as to whether that happens with TV-Kate is yet to be seen. Jason, and presumably Kate via brainwashing, also go on to be villains for a time - so as to further cement the new hero with the mantle and prevent the previous hero from ever holding that position again.
    I hope such a thing doesn't happen. It would be the diarrhea icing on the cake of crap this show has become should it occur.
    Last edited by Celgress; 04-06-2021 at 01:26 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    funny, get it. I've expounded on the near-nature of comic book plots and soap opera roles.
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    I came for Kate, I stayed for Bette Love Fantastic Four, Namor, Batwoman, Dr.Strange.... i love them all

  9. #39
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I hope such a thing doesn't happen. It would be the diarrhea icing on the cake of crap this show has become should it occur.
    Well, Jason has sometimes been referred to in the past as the "bad Robin". In his case though, I do like Red Hood better than Robin (any of them), and now he has a mantle that is uniquely his own (unless mantles like Nightwing, Red Hood etc start becoming legacy roles as well).

    Another thought occurred about making TV-Kate Flamebird - she was in a plane that got shot down, and then she got burned (the explanation for needing a new face). Sorta fits in an awful way, but the phoenix theme works better.

  10. #40
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    This travesty of a show is on its way to ruin B-C list Batman villains like Black Mask after having ruined Hush.
    I only saw the first season with Hush, did they actually ruin him or just waste him?

    IMHO they ruined Jacob Kane and wasted Catherine (so much more could have been done with her). But Sophie and Alice were both improved from their comic counterparts. I don't like the way they've used Luke, he's much better in the comics IMO. Mary (Bette) and Julia I could go either way - I don't necessarily prefer either version.

    The whole "likeable" description of the new OC put me off instantly, and now I've realised why (in addition to removing the original lead character being a stupid move) - it ties in with an outdated attitude about female characters, I feel:



    It reminded me of the whole 'Captain Marvel doesn't smile' debate. I would also note that the new OC is seemingly more traditionally feminine, and I know that the character is still gay, and individual people are different, but it's still interesting.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I've been unable, but mostly uninterested, in watching Batwoman this season.

    For me, it could only be Kate's story, a story which included her cousin Bette. I accepted a lot of what I didn't want to, Mary for example, but I won't accept this.

    I saw a recent trailer or preview for the show, wasn't paying attention, but I believe I saw the person who "is now Kate" and the first thing I noticed was dark brown eyes.

    I'm an eye person. The eyes are the first thing I notice about ANYONE.
    They could have at least done something about that. I could never accept this person as Kate, and have moved on from the show.
    ~ Oberon ~
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  12. #42
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    If you saw Batwoman in that trailer, that wasn't Kate.
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  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    It was a female face I didn't recognize and it didn't "seem" villainous. I'm sorry to be so picky about eye color, but I guess I just am.
    ~ Oberon ~
    Comic-book reading Witch and Pagan since 1970
    I came for Kate, I stayed for Bette Love Fantastic Four, Namor, Batwoman, Dr.Strange.... i love them all

  14. #44
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I'm an eye person. The eyes are the first thing I notice about ANYONE.
    They could have at least done something about that. I could never accept this person as Kate, and have moved on from the show.
    But the actress playing New-Kate has blue/grey eyes:



    I agree about not watching the show though, I don't watch it either. I'm curious to see clips of what they do with Kate though.

    This prediction is probably wrong, but I have a feeling they might eventually turn her in Ryan's LI and damsel. It's not entirely without precedent though - in the comics Kate was introduced as Renee's LI and damsel.
    It's been a while, but I recall Renee having to rescue Kate at least a couple of times from the 'Religion of Crime' - who managed to abduct her more than once. While I don't absolutely hate that idea, I feel if Kate's to be a LI and damsel again - it should be to Renee.

    Regardless, since there is no new footage of New-Kate, here is the Kane family: https://www.instagram.com/p/CNvSuVijLFr/
    Last edited by Bat-Meal; 04-17-2021 at 12:42 AM. Reason: Stupid links not working

  15. #45
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Okay, if you're reading this thread I'm assuming you don't care about spoilers (I sure don't).

    With that bit done:

    Episode titles for 15 through to the finale are out:

    15 - Armed Suspect
    16 - Rebirth
    17 - Kane, Kate
    18 - Power (season finale)

    And Wallis Day has finally been spotted on set. Apparently she stands in the middle of the road, blocking the Batmobile. Also Kate is blonde now.
    Source: https://canadagraphs.weebly.com/batw...and-wallis-day

    Sigh, this just feels like a 'Robin gone bad' storyline. No doubt she'll be Ryan's nemesis for a while, and then Ryan will have to teach her how to be good again, or something alone those lines.

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