It's been ten years since New 52. What went wrong?

[ducklord]

Lilith was screwed up as well. The dumb thing is, George Perez was the New Teen Titans artist, and he's the one who rebooted WW as a writer, so the blame lies at his feet. Did he not know about Crisis (which was also his work) when he drew Lilith's Olympian Titans related origin? If he did he should've warned Marv Wolfman, the NTT writer.

Lilith's freaky-ass Olympian origin getting scotched I file squarely in the "minor side-effects" category. It IS danged funny that Wolfman and Perez just kind of re-used their earlier plot device (mysterious Teen Titan is actually related to the mythical Titans) again when they were trying to salvage *something* out of the mess of Donna Troy's continuity, but it's not like Lilith was doing anything with her newfangled origin, anyway. Don't get me wrong, I like Lilith, but hamfisting her into the Greek Titans always struck me as, um, odd.

Crisis was as good excuse as any to try again.

[lordozone]

New 52 destroys continuity for short term sales boost

The continuity was atrocious before. And since the end of New 52 it's worse.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Out of 52 books though, I'm not sure if these creative departures are all that significant given the numbers were dealing with and not all departures are equal either. I mean, Rob Liefield's departure wasn't a major blow to the industry.

It wasn't just some isolated occurrence. It was a clear pattern of conduct. Yes, DC was publishing 52 titles, but even then when about a dozen or so creators are left alienated by the running of the line and the quality of the titles starts to severely suffer as a result, then yes, there's a problem. Aside from Liefield, there was also Joshua Hale Fialkov, Andy Diggle, Nick Spencer, J.H. Williams, W. Haden Blackman, George Perez, and several others.

My major point will always be; look at the 5 years that proceeded the New 52 and look at the 5 years of the New 52 and compare and contrast the quality of comics in both eras. The New 52 is a vast improvement. The only comics I think I've read from that period were by Grant Morrison and Geoff Johns and their work continued into the New 52 (I have read the Wonder Woman comics too, but I've read all WW comics so its a wash).

Keep in mind, I really only read comics that are highly recommended and I'm not that big a fan of the Post-Crisis continuity either.

If memory serves, the quality of the comics wasn't really an improvement on what came before. Looking at the 52 titles they put out at the time, a lot of them were either entirely forgettable or just straight-up bad. And, yes, there were a few very good titles that were being put out at the time, but they were more so the exception than the rule.

Scott Snyder's Batman and Geoff Johns's Aquaman and Green Lantern were beloved. But the New 52 runs on Teen Titans, Catwoman, Green Arrow (before the Lemire run), Justice League International, etc? Not so much. And what's more, you could easily argue that the good titles of the New 52 really didn't require a reboot to still happen.

[prepmaster]

The number 52 is a joke. No way you could make 52 titles sustainable.

[Jadeb]

If memory serves, the quality of the comics wasn't really an improvement on what came before. Looking at the 52 titles they put out at the time, a lot of them were either entirely forgettable or just straight-up bad. And, yes, there were a few very good titles that were being put out at the time, but they were more so the exception than the rule.

This is what I don’t get about the perpetual appeal of reboots. If people writing bad comics are still writing the comics after the reboot, why would the product be any better?

[godisawesome]

This is what I don’t get about the perpetual appeal of reboots. If people writing bad comics are still writing the comics after the reboot, why would the product be any better?

I think the attraction is that, in theory, one or two writers with ambition will reveal themselves to have genuine talent when given free-reign, and that already great writers will do even better if given the chance.

The trade off, of course, is when cronyism, nepotism, or a simple lack of available talent ends up drowning out the diamonds or handicapping their ability to pour any energy onto any other books.

The New 52 actually had quite a few people do well or at least competent for a while... but eventually get replaced by “good soldiers” for the whims of editorial.

[Menacer]

I'm an outlier here. But while I read comics as a child, I'd never read as an adult until around 2016.

My first purchase was Superman Wonder Woman Volume 1 Power Couple. This was my entry.

At the time I had no idea what New52 was. I actually saw the animated Flashpoint Paradox before I read the book.

I eventually collected all of Action Comics and bunch of Superman... Earth 2, Convergence, The Final Days of Superman and the eventual Rebirth was for me totally captivating.

Justice League and the eventual Darkseid War Saga and so much more... New 52 at least for me achieved it's goal of bringing in a new reader... I'm now finished about 50 graphic novels a year, mostly DC...

Honeslty the hardcore DC fandom would be better off not shooting themselves in the own foot by scaring readers away from loads of great stories.

[godisawesome]

I'm an outlier here. But while I read comics as a child, I'd never read as an adult until around 2016.

My first purchase was Superman Wonder Woman Volume 1 Power Couple. This was my entry.

At the time I had no idea what New52 was. I actually saw the animated Flashpoint Paradox before I read the book.

I eventually collected all of Action Comics and bunch of Superman... Earth 2, Convergence, The Final Days of Superman and the eventual Rebirth was for me totally captivating.

Justice League and the eventual Darkseid War Saga and so much more... New 52 at least for me achieved it's goal of bringing in a new reader... I'm now finished about 50 graphic novels a year, mostly DC...

Honeslty the hardcore DC fandom would be better off not shooting themselves in the own foot by scaring readers away from loads of great stories.

The infighting is a liability... but as someone who came in as a kid on antique shop-purchased Reign of the Superman books and stuff like Young Justice, I don’t think the New 52 necessarily gained any advantage from the reboot nature of itself... nor did Crisis on Infinite Earths.

It was getting good writers on books and letting them write the characters they wanted - and maybe more importantly, marketing them effectively and striking where the iron is hot.

I really don’t believe the idea that anyone is scared off by continuity - you yourself could roll with Rebirth, and I came in mid-major event. I’d say the greatest “sin” of the New 52 was more the limits Didio and others enforced on it - that someone like you wouldn’t have been scared off by more Batgirls or Flashes, and that since both of those had healthy books before the New 52, *that* particular move did genuine damage.

[Digifiend]

The number 52 is a joke. No way you could make 52 titles sustainable.

Yeah, 40ish is more like it. I mentioned earlier that New 52 should've been an Ultimate style universe. Well, I'd limit it to 12 titles. With around 30 or so in the old continuity alongside it. Those 12 books? Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Justice League, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Flash, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, Green Arrow, Justice League Dark, and Batgirl. The classic line would include Action, Detective, Sensation (those three being for the Trinity), GL Corps, Wally West Flash, Nightwing, etc. Where a character is in both lines, they'd have some sort of title modifier (an adjective or the civilian name if it's different, as is the case for both Flash and Batgirl).

[ducklord]

The infighting is a liability... but as someone who came in as a kid on antique shop-purchased Reign of the Superman books and stuff like Young Justice, I donÂ’t think the New 52 necessarily gained any advantage from the reboot nature of itself... nor did Crisis on Infinite Earths.

It was getting good writers on books and letting them write the characters they wanted - and maybe more importantly, marketing them effectively and striking where the iron is hot.

I really don’t believe the idea that anyone is scared off by continuity - you yourself could roll with Rebirth, and I came in mid-major event. I’d say the greatest “sin” of the New 52 was more the limits Didio and others enforced on it - that someone like you wouldn’t have been scared off by more Batgirls or Flashes, and that since both of those had healthy books before the New 52, *that* particular move did genuine damage.

How dare you bring reasoned discourse into a gripe thread

I'll second a few of your thoughts enthusiastically:
- Few people are all that scared by deep continuity, as long as it actually, y'know, exists. Before the Crisis, DC's continuity wasn't particularly daunting. It was deep, and had some silly stuff in the past that could probably be ignored (looking at you, Wonder Tot), but it wasn't what anyone would call befuddling. And the post-Crisis DCU wasn't all that difficult to grok either, even though it started to fray at the edges a bit when the whole "Superboy-Prime punches continuity" thing came into play. On the other hand, when continuity doesn't appear to exist, or is only half-formed, it can push people away, as exhibited at times by ad hoc nature of post-Flashpoint continuity.

- In the end, though, quality comics will win the day. One of the reasons that people rolled with the changes of Crisis was that a) 90% of the current books that they were enjoying continued on their merry way without a care in the world, and b) The heavily rebooted books (Superman, Wonder Woman) got studly A-List creators attached to them (Byrne, Perez, Ordway, etc.). The New 52 got some high-level talent on their rebooted books (which, lo and behold, were some of the books that got the most praise), but they also threw three titles to Rob freakin' Liefeld. If you were enjoying a pre-Flashpoint book only to have it cancelled so that a line-wide reboot can bring on a Rob Liefeld Hawkman series, you might get a bit miffed.

- Your final point, about the limits, is one that needs to be explored further. In the post-Crisis universe, there were a few undeniable limits placed on creators: Stories about the multiverse were gone, the Golden Age trinity (plus a few) were no longer available (which no doubt drove poor Roy Thomas insane), and a few other characters had been wiped from history (notably Supergirl). But aside from that, creators were pretty darned free to write whatever stories they wanted to, building up a universe that was still about 90% the same as it was before the Crisis. On top of that, they had new, multigenerational bonds to explore now that Earth-2 had been "added" to the history of Earth-1. It was if a big new canvas had been added.

Post-Flashpoint, however, had removed a LOT of the toys. All of the golden age characters were gone. The Titans history was gone. Characters (weirdly) were no longer allowed to be married. There *was* a blank canvas available to scribble *new* histories for these characters, but nothing could reference past events, 'cause they, by and large, no longer existed. It must have been very frustrating. Especially since, as has been detailed elsewhere, they were getting mixed signals from their editors about what they could and could not do.

It occurs to me that this dead horse has been beaten into its component quarks by now.

[BlueRuggo]

The number 52 is a joke. No way you could make 52 titles sustainable.

That is a misunderstanding of the New 52. They did not set out to sustain 52 titles all at the same time; that number was meant to include all of the mini-series and one-shots as well, and some were only going to be launched after others ended. Their goal was to have a little less than half of the 52 be simultaneous ongoing titles, which is still very ambitious but not completely insane.

[Jadeb]

I think the attraction is that, in theory, one or two writers with ambition will reveal themselves to have genuine talent when given free-reign, and that already great writers will do even better if given the chance.

The trade off, of course, is when cronyism, nepotism, or a simple lack of available talent ends up drowning out the diamonds or handicapping their ability to pour any energy onto any other books.

The New 52 actually had quite a few people do well or at least competent for a while... but eventually get replaced by “good soldiers” for the whims of editorial.

I guess I’m cynical. To me, the only thing really worth keeping out of the New 52 was Morrison’s Superman, and he was the definition of a known quantity on the character. At this point, I think I’d need to see fresh blood to pay attention to another reboot, not just shuffling of the deck chairs.

[Jadeb]

- Few people are all that scared by deep continuity, as long as it actually, y'know, exists. Before the Crisis, DC's continuity wasn't particularly daunting. It was deep, and had some silly stuff in the past that could probably be ignored (looking at you, Wonder Tot), but it wasn't what anyone would call befuddling. And the post-Crisis DCU wasn't all that difficult to grok either, even though it started to fray at the edges a bit when the whole "Superboy-Prime punches continuity" thing came into play. On the other hand, when continuity doesn't appear to exist, or is only half-formed, it can push people away, as exhibited at times by ad hoc nature of post-Flashpoint continuity.

I’ve never found DC’s continuity all that taxing ... until this year. I stopped buying monthlies in favor of DC Universe last year, but I thought Future State looked interesting and considered hopping back onboard. I was behind by several months at that point, and I have to admit trying to figure out how it fit together was impenetrable — even as a long-term fan who knows how this stuff works.

[superduperman]

How dare you bring reasoned discourse into a gripe thread

I'll second a few of your thoughts enthusiastically:
- Few people are all that scared by deep continuity, as long as it actually, y'know, exists. Before the Crisis, DC's continuity wasn't particularly daunting. It was deep, and had some silly stuff in the past that could probably be ignored (looking at you, Wonder Tot), but it wasn't what anyone would call befuddling. And the post-Crisis DCU wasn't all that difficult to grok either, even though it started to fray at the edges a bit when the whole "Superboy-Prime punches continuity" thing came into play. On the other hand, when continuity doesn't appear to exist, or is only half-formed, it can push people away, as exhibited at times by ad hoc nature of post-Flashpoint continuity.

- In the end, though, quality comics will win the day. One of the reasons that people rolled with the changes of Crisis was that a) 90% of the current books that they were enjoying continued on their merry way without a care in the world, and b) The heavily rebooted books (Superman, Wonder Woman) got studly A-List creators attached to them (Byrne, Perez, Ordway, etc.). The New 52 got some high-level talent on their rebooted books (which, lo and behold, were some of the books that got the most praise), but they also threw three titles to Rob freakin' Liefeld. If you were enjoying a pre-Flashpoint book only to have it cancelled so that a line-wide reboot can bring on a Rob Liefeld Hawkman series, you might get a bit miffed.

- Your final point, about the limits, is one that needs to be explored further. In the post-Crisis universe, there were a few undeniable limits placed on creators: Stories about the multiverse were gone, the Golden Age trinity (plus a few) were no longer available (which no doubt drove poor Roy Thomas insane), and a few other characters had been wiped from history (notably Supergirl). But aside from that, creators were pretty darned free to write whatever stories they wanted to, building up a universe that was still about 90% the same as it was before the Crisis. On top of that, they had new, multigenerational bonds to explore now that Earth-2 had been "added" to the history of Earth-1. It was if a big new canvas had been added.

Post-Flashpoint, however, had removed a LOT of the toys. All of the golden age characters were gone. The Titans history was gone. Characters (weirdly) were no longer allowed to be married. There *was* a blank canvas available to scribble *new* histories for these characters, but nothing could reference past events, 'cause they, by and large, no longer existed. It must have been very frustrating. Especially since, as has been detailed elsewhere, they were getting mixed signals from their editors about what they could and could not do.

It occurs to me that this dead horse has been beaten into its component quarks by now.

I think it's rather telling that only ten years after COIE the Superman crew were already bringing back some of the pre-Crisis elements. Superman was rebooted in 1986. By summer 1996 they were doing a storyline about Kandor making a comeback. Albeit in a different form. But still, it's obvious that they were out of ideas and needing to mine the previous continuity. Birthright happened because the well was clearly tapped out. They had even brought back the SA Krypton and Peter David had brought back the pre-Crisis Supergirl because that's the one fans REALLY wanted. I don't think you can ever fully get away from the past. The more rules you attach to something, the harder it is to stick to. And New 52 was nothing but rules.

[prepmaster]

The reality is the new 52 was already failing since the 2nd half of 2013. Top 20 monthly sales chart shows that. Only Batman related titles were consistent while most other titles lost readership gradually.