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Thread: Obi-Wan Kenobi

  1. #541

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    Finished series 1 and I enjoyed it.

    I didn't mind Reva as I knew she was going to turn good from the very first episode (She didn't have an evil Sith lord feel to it) I would have thought it would have been cooler if Qui Gon Jinn spoke to her after she sparred Luke's life though.

    Darth Vader and his rage has been fantastic in this series, looking forward to season 2!

  2. #542
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Having Reva not know it was Anakin would have made her seem more clever. As it is, a mynock with head trauma could have easily seen through the plan to join and then secretly betray the guy who killed all your friends.
    The weirdest thing is Vader indulging Reva's plot given that she knew he was Anakin.

    I can believe that he'd play around with his prey for spite but I don't think he'd leave anyone alive long with that kind of info around. It kills the Vader mystique and he can't have that.

  3. #543
    Extraordinary Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    The weirdest thing is Vader indulging Reva's plot given that she knew he was Anakin.

    I can believe that he'd play around with his prey for spite but I don't think he'd leave anyone alive long with that kind of info around. It kills the Vader mystique and he can't have that.
    Same thing pretty much happened in Marvel's first Vader comic. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Thanoth


    I think both Tarkin and Thrawn have their suspicions, at least in the novels. Vader is pretty casual about referring to Kenobi as his "old master" to Tarkin in ANH too, although of course at that point in the story we (and probably Lucas himself) didn't know Vader and Anakin were the same.
    Last edited by ChrisIII; 07-06-2022 at 10:30 AM.
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  4. #544
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    After a couple of weeks to think on it, I still enjoy the series. However, I'm not sure they should have let OWK hand DV so complete a stompin' (well-executed and exciting to watch as it was). For the narrative of the whole franchise, it might have been better if it had been a barely-escaped-with-a-stalemate-from-a-far-more-powerful-than-last-time-Vader conclusion. Of course, I guess there's room for that to play out since an S2 seems inevitable.

  5. #545
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Had similar thoughts, but I think it fits better with the New Hope line about "Last time I was but the learner." The fight in Kenobi keeps that true....from a certain point of view. I can believe that Vader could come to that conclusion after the beatdown he got. But if Kenobi had barely escaped that final fight, Vader's line in the film wouldn't make as much sense.

    Y'know, insofar as the canon has *ever* made sense.

    In reality, Vader has spent ten years hunting Jedi and doing whatever awful things Palpatine told him to, while Kenobi just got cynical and old. Vader likely should have won the fight with little more effort than he won the first fight earlier in the season, whether Kenobi had got his groove back or not. Being inspired to fight again does not undo a decade of sitting on your ass.
    Last edited by Ascended; 07-06-2022 at 05:26 PM.
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  6. #546
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    Same thing pretty much happened in Marvel's first Vader comic. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Thanoth


    I think both Tarkin and Thrawn have their suspicions, at least in the novels. Vader is pretty casual about referring to Kenobi as his "old master" to Tarkin in ANH too, although of course at that point in the story we (and probably Lucas himself) didn't know Vader and Anakin were the same.
    By the time of ANH, the Jedi have passed largely into the realm of legend, so I don't think Vader is as concerned with being tied down to specifics because there's just too much fiction mingling with fact out there. Plus Tarkin has a different dynamic with Vader, he's essentially his boss or at the very least his co-equal. If Vader did anything to Tarkin he would be answering to the Emperor for it.

    At the early stage in his career, when Vader wants to put Anakin behind him and runs the danger of encountering people who knew him in his former state, I think he'd be more anxious to eliminate those with that knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    After a couple of weeks to think on it, I still enjoy the series. However, I'm not sure they should have let OWK hand DV so complete a stompin' (well-executed and exciting to watch as it was). For the narrative of the whole franchise, it might have been better if it had been a barely-escaped-with-a-stalemate-from-a-far-more-powerful-than-last-time-Vader conclusion. Of course, I guess there's room for that to play out since an S2 seems inevitable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Had similar thoughts, but I think it fits better with the New Hope line about "Last time I was but the learner." The fight in Kenobi keeps that true....from a certain point of view. I can believe that Vader could come to that conclusion after the beatdown he got. But if Kenobi had barely escaped that final fight, Vader's line in the film wouldn't make as much sense.

    Y'know, insofar as the canon has *ever* made sense.

    In reality, Vader has spent ten years hunting Jedi and doing whatever awful things Palpatine told him to, while Kenobi just got cynical and old. Vader likely should have won the fight with little more effort than he won the first fight earlier in the season, whether Kenobi had got his groove back or not. Being inspired to fight again does not undo a decade of sitting on your ass.
    I think the way they should have gotten around this is by having Kenobi increasingly rely on his wits since he can't take Vader one on one, and have him fake his death in a 'final' confrontation. So you get your cake and eat it, too--Vader trashes him in a fight but he's smarter.

    Obi-Wan not being able to kill Vader when he had the chance made little sense here, given how anxious he is for Vader to die in ANH. But I guess they could still build up to Obi-Wan coming to the conclusion that Vader can't be saved.

  7. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    By the time of ANH, the Jedi have passed largely into the realm of legend, so I don't think Vader is as concerned with being tied down to specifics because there's just too much fiction mingling with fact out there. Plus Tarkin has a different dynamic with Vader, he's essentially his boss or at the very least his co-equal. If Vader did anything to Tarkin he would be answering to the Emperor for it.

    At the early stage in his career, when Vader wants to put Anakin behind him and runs the danger of encountering people who knew him in his former state, I think he'd be more anxious to eliminate those with that knowledge.





    I think the way they should have gotten around this is by having Kenobi increasingly rely on his wits since he can't take Vader one on one, and have him fake his death in a 'final' confrontation. So you get your cake and eat it, too--Vader trashes him in a fight but he's smarter.

    Obi-Wan not being able to kill Vader when he had the chance made little sense here, given how anxious he is for Vader to die in ANH. But I guess they could still build up to Obi-Wan coming to the conclusion that Vader can't be saved.
    I agree with your first comment, but I see it differently on the second. It didn't seem to me that OWK was out to kill DV in ANH. He was just trying to get the plans to Alderan, and didn't even know that DV (or Leia) were aboard the Death Star. At least, canonically, he didn't seem to know it, although I suppose it could be argued that he sensed DV when he gave the "That's no moon" comment.

    IMO, he didn't even want to kill DV in RotS, but was doing what was necessary. Now he wanted to kill the Emperor, but Yoda knew he wasn't up to it.

    As for not killing DV, I still hold the opinion that executing a defeated foe is not the Jedi way. In both this series and RotS, DV was flattened, and no longer an immediate threat. Killing him in the heat of the fight would have been one thing (as when OWK bifurcated Darth Maul), finishing him while helpless quite another. I've always seen it as one of the real handicaps a Jedi has in facing a Sith: they can use to the force in defense - even lethally so - but not in attack without giving in to the dark side.

  8. #548
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    I agree with your first comment, but I see it differently on the second. It didn't seem to me that OWK was out to kill DV in ANH. He was just trying to get the plans to Alderan, and didn't even know that DV (or Leia) were aboard the Death Star. At least, canonically, he didn't seem to know it, although I suppose it could be argued that he sensed DV when he gave the "That's no moon" comment.

    IMO, he didn't even want to kill DV in RotS, but was doing what was necessary. Now he wanted to kill the Emperor, but Yoda knew he wasn't up to it.
    I think you're absolutely right that Obi-Wan doesn't want to kill Anakin in RoTS, it's why he can't bring himself to finish him off (even though it's arguably more cruel to let him burn to death than to give him a clean killing stroke).

    As for not killing DV, I still hold the opinion that executing a defeated foe is not the Jedi way. In both this series and RotS, DV was flattened, and no longer an immediate threat. Killing him in the heat of the fight would have been one thing (as when OWK bifurcated Darth Maul), finishing him while helpless quite another. I've always seen it as one of the real handicaps a Jedi has in facing a Sith: they can use to the force in defense - even lethally so - but not in attack without giving in to the dark side.
    I agree that killing a defeated foe is not the Jedi way (though in the case of RoTS, letting Anakin burn to death is hardly a mercy).

    I'm just saying that by RoTJ, Obi-Wan has reached a point where he believes killing Darth Vader is the only way, perhaps because of the guilt he carries over all the people who died because he never finished Vader when he had the chance (twice, apparently).

  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I'm just saying that by RoTJ, Obi-Wan has reached a point where he believes killing Darth Vader is the only way, perhaps because of the guilt he carries over all the people who died because he never finished Vader when he had the chance (twice, apparently).
    Ah. I see your point.

  10. #550
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I think the way they should have gotten around this is by having Kenobi increasingly rely on his wits since he can't take Vader one on one, and have him fake his death in a 'final' confrontation. So you get your cake and eat it, too--Vader trashes him in a fight but he's smarter.
    That would have been good, and put a different spin on "last time I was but the learner" too. Don't get me wrong, the final Kenobi-Vader fight was badass as hell and a lot of fun, and after watching Kenobi struggle and trip so much, we probably needed a moment of catharsis like that. But your idea of Kenobi out-smarting Vader because he couldn't win a head-on fight would have, I think, been more true to both characters and where they were in that moment, as well as more true to where they are in New Hope.

    Obi-Wan not being able to kill Vader when he had the chance made little sense here, given how anxious he is for Vader to die in ANH. But I guess they could still build up to Obi-Wan coming to the conclusion that Vader can't be saved.
    Eh, I gotta agree that it doesn't seem to be the Jedi way to execute a defeated foe. And even if that isn't the case and an execution is allowed by Jedi code, I just don't think Kenobi can bring himself to do it. Even when a quick, clean death would be a mercy, Kenobi just....can't. That was his brother, after all.

    And does Kenobi want Vader dead in New Hope? I don't recall him saying that Vader *must* die. Kenobi comes to that realization by RotJ and basically says outright that Luke will have to kill or be killed, but in New Hope Kenobi's only goal seems to be getting Leia and the Death Star plans to the rebellion. Unless I'm forgetting some dialogue?
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  11. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    ...the final Kenobi-Vader fight was badass as hell and a lot of fun, and after watching Kenobi struggle and trip so much, we probably needed a moment of catharsis like that. But your idea of Kenobi out-smarting Vader because he couldn't win a head-on fight would have, I think, been more true to both characters and where they were in that moment, as well as more true to where they are in New Hope...
    I agree. We did, however, get something of that victory by slight of hand thing in the penultimate ep, where DV impressively yanks a ship out of the sky, only to realize it's a decoy as the real escape ship blasts off. One complex thing about DV's iconic look is that we're forced to imagine just how pissed-looking he must have been under that mask.

  12. #552
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Eh, I gotta agree that it doesn't seem to be the Jedi way to execute a defeated foe. And even if that isn't the case and an execution is allowed by Jedi code, I just don't think Kenobi can bring himself to do it. Even when a quick, clean death would be a mercy, Kenobi just....can't. That was his brother, after all.

    And does Kenobi want Vader dead in New Hope? I don't recall him saying that Vader *must* die. Kenobi comes to that realization by RotJ and basically says outright that Luke will have to kill or be killed, but in New Hope Kenobi's only goal seems to be getting Leia and the Death Star plans to the rebellion. Unless I'm forgetting some dialogue?
    You're right, he doesn't seem especially concerned with killing Vader in ANH. It's RoTJ where he's all in on the concept. Though it could be argued this is always what he had in mind for Luke.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    I agree. We did, however, get something of that victory by slight of hand thing in the penultimate ep, where DV impressively yanks a ship out of the sky, only to realize it's a decoy as the real escape ship blasts off. One complex thing about DV's iconic look is that we're forced to imagine just how pissed-looking he must have been under that mask.
    Yeah, that was the big moment where Obi-Wan outsmarted Darth Vader. I just wish they'd gone with Obi-Wan faking his death for their 'final' confrontation.

    Interestingly, in the original film script it's Reva who tricks Vader by saying she killed Obi-Wan (and thus sacrificing herself to guard Obi-Wan's secret).

  13. #553
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    You're right, he doesn't seem especially concerned with killing Vader in ANH. It's RoTJ where he's all in on the concept. Though it could be argued this is always what he had in mind for Luke.
    Perhaps?

    I think another wrinkle in the dynamic is the Chosen One prophesy. Kenobi seemed to become a true believer, despite early reservations. Perhaps he still held out some small hope that Vader could be saved, brought back from the dark side, and achieve his destiny.

    My guess is that Kenobi, Yoda, Bail, etc., all believed the Skywalker twins were of vital importance....but Kenobi may have thought the kids would be what pulled Anakin back from the dark side. A father's love, and all that yknow? I don't think Kenobi would intentionally put the burden of killing Vader on Luke or Leia's shoulders, I think he intended on using them to save Anakin from himself. But after the battle in Cloud City where Vader *knows* Luke is his kid and nearly kills him anyway? That's probably when Kenobi (and Yoda) start thinking that Luke will have to kill Vader, rather than redeem him.

    Perhaps at that point Kenobi thinks they've been misunderstanding the prophesy the whole time; it was never Anakin who would balance the Force, but his children. And in that way, it's still Anakin who brings it about, so the prophesy is still true....from a certain point of view.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  14. #554
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I'm just saying that by RoTJ, Obi-Wan has reached a point where he believes killing Darth Vader is the only way, perhaps because of the guilt he carries over all the people who died because he never finished Vader when he had the chance (twice, apparently).
    And in ANH he let Vader kill him. Han's the only reason Vader didn't kill his own son, save the Death Star and destroy the Rebels. (along with his daughter) It would be a funny retcon though if Han only came back because Obi-Wan Jedi pushed him as a Force Ghost.

  15. #555
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    Vader not killing Obi Wan is a bigger problem for me than Obi Wan not killing Vader. Both Obi Wan and Reva only survive because Vader came down with a severe case of plot-induced stupidity and kept on refusing to finish off his opponents. He keeps making the classic stupid villain mistake of assuming his opponents will die on their own and leaving instead of acting in-character and ensuring they die.

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