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  1. #211
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Can someone explain why people love UtRH? Is it nostalgia? For me its like Brubaker s Winter Soldier. Only its bad

  2. #212
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    Can someone explain why people love UtRH? Is it nostalgia? For me its like Brubaker s Winter Soldier. Only its bad
    It's not nostalgia, seeing as how many of us were already adults who fell in love with the film when it came out and didn't feel that strongly about the comic.
    I don't know what to tell you - you're basically calling what many of us thinks is one of the greatest Batman films of all times bad and asking why we don't. I mean, by the numbers your view is kind of the odd one, so it'd be easier maybe if you explain why you don't like the movie so we've got some idea what to address for you?

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    Can someone explain why people love UtRH? Is it nostalgia? For me its like Brubaker s Winter Soldier. Only its bad
    Well, the DYV movie Under the Red Hood is actually a fairly high caliber story with excellent execution, as compared to just Under the Hood, the original comic, which was a hit, but also sloppy and a bit unfocused. It ain’t nostalgia; the film was a massive critical and fanbase hit when it first came out and hasn’t really ever lost that edge even as other media has tried adapting it to various degrees.

    The film version benefits from a very focused high-concept story that is equal to Brubaker’s Winter Soldier story, but with faster pacing and a filial/paternal relationship between the antagonist and hero as compared to the fraternal relationship in Winter Soldier. Winnick cut out a lot of fat by combining his Part 1 and Part 2 climaxes into a single story of Red Hood manipulating Black Mask into freeing the Joker for his confrontation with Bruce, changing Bruce’s story from a largely reactionary one to a procedural investigation that added complex nuance to his role in the finale because he already knew Jason was back and how Red Hood got resurrected, which also became a much more nuanced and character driven decision by Ra’s Al Ghul.

    Both the comics used high-concept “cheats” to resurrect the old sidekick and get his mind back, and in the comic form, Brubaker did better than Winnick, but in film form, Winnick drew even with Brubaker because Ra’s character allowed for a better dramatic explanation. And the strength of the comic had always been the drama between Jason and Bruce. Winnick making sure to double down his focus on that worked wonders.

    Batman fans are suckers for stories that make Batman both undeniably impressive and yet still human and relatable. UTRH did that about equal to the way Mask of the Phantasm did in the 90’s.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  4. #214
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    UtRH was a damn good movie, and I say that as someone who really doesn't care for either Jason or Judd Winnick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Parker View Post
    Two, I think Harvey's turn to the dark side is rushed in the comic. He goes from being the likable DA to stabbing a doctor in the back to escape the hospital in a few pages, and his pre-existing mental health problems are only briefly alluded to in one scene. The film is putting the work in to set up his mental health issues from the beginning, as we see that he was deemed unfit to carry a handgun in his psych eval and is already showing signs of a split personality. Maybe they'll screw the pooch, but I think his transformation might feel much more smooth come part 2..
    This is a big improvement for me. The preview for part 2 has Harvey hearing voices before his scarring, which is more than the book provided. One of the lamentations I've seen among diehard Two-Face fans is that TLH is the most mainstream comic story for Harvey's fall, while Batman annual #14 "Eye of the Beholder" (his first post-Crisis origin) gets ignored in comparison despite having a reputation as being a stronger story for Harvey's illness and transformation. If the creators of the movie are looking to that annual for inspiration on Harvey and marrying it to the TLH plot, all the better for Two-Face.

    Loeb is one of those writers who clearly loves a character but can't write that character very well. He really can't write any of the rogues as layered characters. He's just as bad, if not worse, than Tom King in that regard.

  5. #215
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    UtRH was a damn good movie, and I say that as someone who really doesn't care for either Jason or Judd Winnick.



    This is a big improvement for me. The preview for part 2 has Harvey hearing voices before his scarring, which is more than the book provided. One of the lamentations I've seen among diehard Two-Face fans is that TLH is the most mainstream comic story for Harvey's fall, while Batman annual #14 "Eye of the Beholder" (his first post-Crisis origin) gets ignored in comparison despite having a reputation as being a stronger story for Harvey's illness and transformation. If the creators of the movie are looking to that annual for inspiration on Harvey and marrying it to the TLH plot, all the better for Two-Face.

    Loeb is one of those writers who clearly loves a character but can't write that character very well. He really can't write any of the rogues as layered characters. He's just as bad, if not worse, than Tom King in that regard.
    Crap, I forgot I added Eye of the Beholder on my to read list. Is it collected anywhere?

  6. #216
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Crap, I forgot I added Eye of the Beholder on my to read list. Is it collected anywhere?
    It looks like it's been collected a few times, including in Two-Face: A Celebration of 75 Years

  7. #217
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It looks like it's been collected a few times, including in Two-Face: A Celebration of 75 Years
    Thanks!
    tenchars

  8. #218
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    It's not nostalgia, seeing as how many of us were already adults who fell in love with the film when it came out and didn't feel that strongly about the comic.
    I don't know what to tell you - you're basically calling what many of us thinks is one of the greatest Batman films of all times bad and asking why we don't. I mean, by the numbers your view is kind of the odd one, so it'd be easier maybe if you explain why you don't like the movie so we've got some idea what to address for you?
    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Well, the DYV movie Under the Red Hood is actually a fairly high caliber story with excellent execution, as compared to just Under the Hood, the original comic, which was a hit, but also sloppy and a bit unfocused. It ain’t nostalgia; the film was a massive critical and fanbase hit when it first came out and hasn’t really ever lost that edge even as other media has tried adapting it to various degrees.

    The film version benefits from a very focused high-concept story that is equal to Brubaker’s Winter Soldier story, but with faster pacing and a filial/paternal relationship between the antagonist and hero as compared to the fraternal relationship in Winter Soldier. Winnick cut out a lot of fat by combining his Part 1 and Part 2 climaxes into a single story of Red Hood manipulating Black Mask into freeing the Joker for his confrontation with Bruce, changing Bruce’s story from a largely reactionary one to a procedural investigation that added complex nuance to his role in the finale because he already knew Jason was back and how Red Hood got resurrected, which also became a much more nuanced and character driven decision by Ra’s Al Ghul.

    Both the comics used high-concept “cheats” to resurrect the old sidekick and get his mind back, and in the comic form, Brubaker did better than Winnick, but in film form, Winnick drew even with Brubaker because Ra’s character allowed for a better dramatic explanation. And the strength of the comic had always been the drama between Jason and Bruce. Winnick making sure to double down his focus on that worked wonders.

    Batman fans are suckers for stories that make Batman both undeniably impressive and yet still human and relatable. UTRH did that about equal to the way Mask of the Phantasm did in the 90’s.

    Well, for one I love Doug Mahnke from that era and probably am the only one who likes the UtRH comic more. I grew up with Jason being dead and Tim and Dick as Robin in various media. For me bringing Jason back was unnecessary drama, Joker and Ra's godlike supercriminals, Bruce dumbed down and a jerk. Yeah, I hated the movie with a passion. The last 5 minutes are kinda great. Especially young Jason in the cave. Its not even close to Mask of the Phantasm or the "good (IMHO)" movies

  9. #219
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    Well, for one I love Doug Mahnke from that era and probably am the only one who likes the UtRH comic more. I grew up with Jason being dead and Tim and Dick as Robin in various media. For me bringing Jason back was unnecessary drama, Joker and Ra's godlike supercriminals, Bruce dumbed down and a jerk. Yeah, I hated the movie with a passion. The last 5 minutes are kinda great. Especially young Jason in the cave. Its not even close to Mask of the Phantasm or the "good (IMHO)" movies
    Agree to disagree then - I'm of the opposite bent, I don't think Mask of the Phantasm is even half as good as UtRH and find it overhyped personally, and consider UtRH to be either the best or second best Batman film of all time (basically UtRH, Nolan's The Dark Knight, and The Dark Knight Returns are all jockeying for top spot in my top 3).

    It's just a difference in taste. It's not a movie you enjoy, doesn't make it a bad movie, or that others are wrong for loving it so.

  10. #220
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I think there are several seminal Batman animated films...

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think there are several seminal Batman animated films...
    Yeah, we’ve been lucky in that. I like Under The Red Hood, Gotham by Gaslight, and Mask of the Phantasm better than the rest, but I still enjoyed Year One and Dark Knight Returns *a lot.*

    And even though I’m someone who poo-poos the Damian films (he shouldn’t have an American accent, dang it!) they’re not *bad.*
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  12. #222
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    All this talk of seminal animated Bat-films and no mention of Return of the Joker, AKA the original UtRH?

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    All this talk of seminal animated Bat-films and no mention of Return of the Joker, AKA the original UtRH?
    I knew I was forgetting one of my favorites!

    …The fact I can forget one of my favorites is rather telling, though. In a good way.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  14. #224
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    All this talk of seminal animated Bat-films and no mention of Return of the Joker, AKA the original UtRH?
    As much as I thought UtRH was good, I agree that Return of the Joker is better.

    I think MoTP was better that UtRH as well. Must be the Hammil Joker effect and/or my general apathy towards Jason.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    As much as I thought UtRH was good, I agree that Return of the Joker is better.

    I think MoTP was better that UtRH as well. Must be the Hammil Joker effect and/or my general apathy towards Jason.
    Well, which is the better Hamill performance?

    ROtJ has that monologue about torturing BTAS Tim, ending with that just brutal “It would have been funny if it weren’t so pathetic…Oh, what the hell, I’ll laugh anyway!” line.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

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