Batman: The Long Halloween Animated Film Voice Actors Cast!

[SiegePerilous02]

I think the fundamental difference here is that, I love TLH and you just don't care for it as much, hence I would prefer faithfulness to it, and you'd rather have them make something else. Instead of an adaptation you want an original story. But I want an adaptation. So...I hope they're as faithful as they can possibly be like they were when adapting Year One, and I hope you can settle for watching any of their other original stories instead!

What? It seems like I'd be more disappointed in a wildly changed "adaptation" while you can be just as pleased the next time they make an wholly original story ala Soul of the Dragon.

No, I don't think TLH as it is is very good beyond the art, but it makes a good template for a film or seasonal arc for a show. The broad plot beats and players can all be the same, but saying they can improve the execution on how they do some things is not the same as "they shouldn't make this film"

How does making Bruce a more competent detective change the spirit of the book? Unless the spirit of the book is that Bruce just isn't very bright and the World's Greatest Detective title was given to him by someone who was being sarcastic? They can adapt the basic plot and still have Alberto and Gilda be the killers. Why would Batman actually doing detective work and figuring out Alberto was one of the killers be a negative change? I also said the Gilda twist can still be there as long as it is better foreshadowed and has at least one less dubious plot hole (the hospital bed). All the villains can show up (I'd love it if they do), but how does making them speak in less annoying/one note ways change the spirit of the story in any significant way whatsoever?

The gold standard for me is still Under The Red Hood - arguably both extremely faithful and still a definite improvement. So I guess for me it’s less that I think they need to “fix” TLH, as much as I think they could use some ambition and insight to “strengthen” it.

Thing’s I love about The Long Halloween:

-The atmosphere.
-The “freaks vs mob” setup.
-The escalation of the tension on the story.
-Harvey Dent’s story.
-Selina and Bruce’s interactions.

Thing’s I think could be strengthened:

-The mystery (arguably, a couple of dialogue changes or minor adjustments in details take care of that.)
-Pacing (“Running the gauntlet” is great, but I think it could be streamlined and focused quite a bit more.)
-Catwoman’s story and Selina and Bruce’s interactions (that it’s to say, I wouldn’t mind a few pieces of Dark Victory and When in Rome popping in.)

The mystery is the biggest thing for me, though that's partially because I genuinely think it’s the weakest execution in an otherwise wonderful premise, and partially because I think they need to come up with more stuff for Bruce if they’re unlikely to adapt all his monologue - to me, you would only gain something by making Brice’s detective skills mean more to the story, and there’s plenty of room for improvement there.

I would genuinely love them adding some of Dark Victory’s moments between Bruce and Selina into the story, though, especially the scene where he tries to apologize for missing a date and bribes her with good food.

Agreed. There is a lot of good material to work with and expand upon with TLH and DV, but improving on the execution definitely isn't impossible.

[Gaius]

What would they even be able to change without messing it up to the point where it should've just been an original project instead of an adaptation?


I've been waiting well over a decade for them to adapt this, my favorite story, as is. I hope they treat it as the sacred Batcow it is and don't change a thing.

What's the point of making an adaptation if you don't even adapt the story?

That's fair, I guess we just come at this from someone who likes vs. someone who isn't its biggest fan.

Though I'm also someone who wishes they changed some stuff in Year One as I wasn't the biggest fan of that (movie or book) either.

[Vakanai]

No, I don't think TLH as it is is very good beyond the art, but it makes a good template for a film or seasonal arc for a show. The broad plot beats and players can all be the same, but saying they can improve the execution on how they do some things is not the same as "they shouldn't make this film"

And that's where we differ. I like it as it is, not as some other thing that could be changed to this and that.

How does making Bruce a more competent detective change the spirit of the book? Unless the spirit of the book is that Bruce just isn't very bright and the World's Greatest Detective title was given to him by someone who was being sarcastic? They can adapt the basic plot and still have Alberto and Gilda be the killers. Why would Batman actually doing detective work and figuring out Alberto was one of the killers be a negative change? I also said the Gilda twist can still be there as long as it is better foreshadowed and has at least one less dubious plot hole (the hospital bed). All the villains can show up (I'd love it if they do), but how does making them speak in less annoying/one note ways change the spirit of the story in any significant way whatsoever?

The problem is, how do you show Batman as this better detective and resist the urge to change the whole mystery, and therefore plot, of the book?
The problem is, I don't trust them to change it. I don't trust them to improve it. Could it be improved upon? Maybe...maybe. After seeing their "improvements" for The Killing Joke and Hush, I'm perfectly fine with the comic book's imperfections thank you very much. It's good enough, it's perfect enough to me. Far better than what I fear we'd get if they feel free to change things. Under the Red Hood was great, all the changes made were for the better. But today that film feels like a fluke. The stars coming into alignment. I don't think they can make the improvements you want them to make. I don't believe that they can do it. I don't even want them to try. All the little things you don't like about the story I'm fine with. With those problems intact it's still my favorite Batman story of all time. If they can just do that story well it should be great enough as is.

Also, it might be that I like the trappings of mystery stories more than the actual mystery, and I never even try to solve the damn things before the detective, whereas for you it seems the mystery itself is more important. I just want a good story, and I think TLH is a great one, and the mystery is just there to move that story along.

You see ways it can be improved. I fear the ways it could be screwed up. And again, that's because you don't care for it very much beyond the ideas and concepts it plays with, while I actually love the story.

Besides, The Dark Knight already took inspirations from it, The Batman is supposed to do the same, what harm is there in having one film that just tells the story straight?

That's fair, I guess we just come at this from someone who likes vs. someone who isn't its biggest fan.

Though I'm also someone who wishes they changed some stuff in Year One as I wasn't the biggest fan of that (movie or book) either.

I'm also not the biggest fan of Year One, which seems like heresy to most fans here. Still, if they had changed Year One, a lot of people would have been pissed. That's how I am about TLH.

[Frontier]

Though I'm also someone who wishes they changed some stuff in Year One as I wasn't the biggest fan of that (movie or book) either.

Just out of curiosity, what would you have wanted changed with Year One?

[Gaius]

Just out of curiosity, what would you have wanted changed with Year One?

Mainly the internal narration. It works well when read but as a voice-over in a movie it just exposition. I also think it would have been better if they chose to focus in on either Bruce or Gordon.

This isn't also isn't really a problem with the film but Miller's narration can also come across pretty clunky when read aloud and I didn't think the VA for Bruce communicated it well for me. Peter Weller for DKR I actually thought did it pretty well.

[Frontier]

Mainly the internal narration. It works well when read but as a voice-over in a movie it just exposition. I also think it would have been better if they chose to focus in on either Bruce or Gordon.

This isn't also isn't really a problem with the film but Miller's narration can also come across pretty clunky when read aloud and I didn't think the VA for Bruce communicated it well for me. Peter Weller for DKR I actually thought did it pretty well.

I thought we got some iconic dialogue from the internal narration, but it may be an acquired taste...

I also think the story works best as a Batman/Gordon duo story.

[SiegePerilous02]

The problem is, how do you show Batman as this better detective and resist the urge to change the whole mystery, and therefore plot, of the book?

You're not explaining how Batman figuring out Alberto is alive and was at least one of the killers with his own deductive reasoning instead of finding out essentially by accident after spinning his wheels for a year "changes the whole mystery, and therefore the plot"

Because it doesn't, it just improves Batman's portrayal. Because while it is early in his career and you can justify him not being the master detective he will be yet and having trouble with this one, he still should IMO show signs of what he will become. None of that is really on display in TLH. He could suspect Alberto before he's "killed off" and be thrown of the scent, before discovering that Alberto is alive later. Worth sacrificing Calendar Man offering stunningly obvious advice ("he will strike on another holiday and also wants to kill Maroni.")

And you DID ask what tweaks I'd make without changing the plot too much.

The problem is, I don't trust them to change it. I don't trust them to improve it. Could it be improved upon? Maybe...maybe. After seeing their "improvements" for The Killing Joke and Hush, I'm perfectly fine with the comic book's imperfections thank you very much. It's good enough, it's perfect enough to me. Far better than what I fear we'd get if they feel free to change things. Under the Red Hood was great, all the changes made were for the better. But today that film feels like a fluke. The stars coming into alignment. I don't think they can make the improvements you want them to make. I don't believe that they can do it. I don't even want them to try. All the little things you don't like about the story I'm fine with. With those problems intact it's still my favorite Batman story of all time. If they can just do that story well it should be great enough as is.

You're right that these people may not be the best creatives to be trusted with making any alterations.

Also, it might be that I like the trappings of mystery stories more than the actual mystery, and I never even try to solve the damn things before the detective, whereas for you it seems the mystery itself is more important. I just want a good story, and I think TLH is a great one, and the mystery is just there to move that story along.

I'm not even that big on mystery stories in general, but if the entire point of a story is to be a mystery....it should probably be a well thought out mystery. And how can it exist just to move the plot around, when the entire plot is the mystery?

I think if the premise of story is a mystery starring Batman (known for solving mysteries), and not only is Batman kind of dumb and doesn't actually solve anything, and the big mystery twist (Gilda) not being that well thought, it kind of fails as a story.

Besides, The Dark Knight already took inspirations from it, The Batman is supposed to do the same, what harm is there in having one film that just tells the story straight?

Who is saying there is harm? It's not as if me criticizing TLH will prevent a good adaptation of it being made or will prevent you from buying it.

[godisawesome]

There’s also the fact that for many people, a story can be “adapted straight” while still having details changed up, tight ended, or, yes, improved. Under the Red Hood is a good example of that. There have also been times where the straight forward adaptation doesn’t really work as well because the change in formats exposes some weaknesses in the story. The Long Halloween was a maxi series that could, frankly, afford to waste some time occasionally. Film doesn’t do that well.

Now, yes, we all know it can also gets screwed up by attempts to change it - while I personally feel that The Killing Joke’s inherent weaknesses as a Batman story were somewhat exposed by the second half of the animated adaptation, the first half of original material is FAR worse. And something like Hush feels like it ultimately succumbed to a combination fo weaknesses in its intial form *and* attempts to change it up.

But honestly...

Let’s say the plot arc and character arcs remain the same.

And the *only* changes are in details - a bit more “fair play” details regarding Gilda (like she’s mobile instead of immobilized), or Bruce sadly, slowly saying “I know” when Harvey tells him there were two Holiday killers, a few scenes showing Bruce doing detective work separately with Alfred, some Dark Victoy and When in Rome scenes are given to Batman and Catwoman.

That still makes a faithful, straight adaptation of Long Halloween, doesn’t it? In the same way that Under the Red Hood subtracting some of the filler and having Ra’s explain how he resurrected Jason cleans up Under the Hood?

You don’t lose *anything* from making the mystery and Bruce’s detective work come out better.

[Gaius]

I thought we got some iconic dialogue from the internal narration, but it may be an acquired taste...

I also think the story works best as a Batman/Gordon duo story.

I'm not denying that but some things just read better on the page than spoken aloud.

[SiegePerilous02]

There’s also the fact that for many people, a story can be “adapted straight” while still having details changed up, tight ended, or, yes, improved. Under the Red Hood is a good example of that. There have also been times where the straight forward adaptation doesn’t really work as well because the change in formats exposes some weaknesses in the story. The Long Halloween was a maxi series that could, frankly, afford to waste some time occasionally. Film doesn’t do that well.

Now, yes, we all know it can also gets screwed up by attempts to change it - while I personally feel that The Killing Joke’s inherent weaknesses as a Batman story were somewhat exposed by the second half of the animated adaptation, the first half of original material is FAR worse. And something like Hush feels like it ultimately succumbed to a combination fo weaknesses in its intial form *and* attempts to change it up.

But honestly...

Let’s say the plot arc and character arcs remain the same.

And the *only* changes are in details - a bit more “fair play” details regarding Gilda (like she’s mobile instead of immobilized), or Bruce sadly, slowly saying “I know” when Harvey tells him there were two Holiday killers, a few scenes showing Bruce doing detective work separately with Alfred, some Dark Victoy and When in Rome scenes are given to Batman and Catwoman.

That still makes a faithful, straight adaptation of Long Halloween, doesn’t it? In the same way that Under the Red Hood subtracting some of the filler and having Ra’s explain how he resurrected Jason cleans up Under the Hood?

You don’t lose *anything* from making the mystery and Bruce’s detective work come out better.

Very well said, this is more along the lines of what I meant.

There is nothing of value to lose and much better stuff to gain if the execution of the mystery and Bruce's competence are improved

[Vakanai]

You're not explaining how Batman figuring out Alberto is alive and was at least one of the killers with his own deductive reasoning instead of finding out essentially by accident after spinning his wheels for a year "changes the whole mystery, and therefore the plot"

I don't have to explain it, because that's not what I meant. What I meant was, they wouldn't do that, that's not the sort of tweak they'd pull. If they were going to change something, it'd be more like the changes they made to Gotham by Gaslight and Hush. They're not into making miniscule tweaks like that, they go big and alter who the culprit is. I'd rather they not make big changes.

And you DID ask what tweaks I'd make without changing the plot too much.

Fair enough. But I don't think we're getting those tweaks. We're either getting very little, or far, far too much.

You're right that these people may not be the best creatives to be trusted with making any alterations.

Bingo.

I'm not even that big on mystery stories in general, but if the entire point of a story is to be a mystery....it should probably be a well thought out mystery. And how can it exist just to move the plot around, when the entire plot is the mystery?

The plot is the war on the mob, the rise of the colorful supervillains, the fall of Harvey Dent. The mystery facilitates those plots.

I think if the premise of story is a mystery starring Batman (known for solving mysteries), and not only is Batman kind of dumb and doesn't actually solve anything, and the big mystery twist (Gilda) not being that well thought, it kind of fails as a story.

I very, very much disagree on that last part.

Who is saying there is harm? It's not as if me criticizing TLH will prevent a good adaptation of it being made or will prevent you from buying it.

True. But there's no reason for them to pull another Gotham by Gaslight or Hush and change too damn much to a beloved Batman story (I'm not alone in loving it).

[Vakanai]

There’s also the fact that for many people, a story can be “adapted straight” while still having details changed up, tight ended, or, yes, improved. Under the Red Hood is a good example of that. There have also been times where the straight forward adaptation doesn’t really work as well because the change in formats exposes some weaknesses in the story. The Long Halloween was a maxi series that could, frankly, afford to waste some time occasionally. Film doesn’t do that well.

Now, yes, we all know it can also gets screwed up by attempts to change it - while I personally feel that The Killing Joke’s inherent weaknesses as a Batman story were somewhat exposed by the second half of the animated adaptation, the first half of original material is FAR worse. And something like Hush feels like it ultimately succumbed to a combination fo weaknesses in its intial form *and* attempts to change it up.

But honestly...

Let’s say the plot arc and character arcs remain the same.

And the *only* changes are in details - a bit more “fair play” details regarding Gilda (like she’s mobile instead of immobilized), or Bruce sadly, slowly saying “I know” when Harvey tells him there were two Holiday killers, a few scenes showing Bruce doing detective work separately with Alfred, some Dark Victoy and When in Rome scenes are given to Batman and Catwoman.

That still makes a faithful, straight adaptation of Long Halloween, doesn’t it? In the same way that Under the Red Hood subtracting some of the filler and having Ra’s explain how he resurrected Jason cleans up Under the Hood?

You don’t lose *anything* from making the mystery and Bruce’s detective work come out better.

And let's say it doesn't happen, and they change who the killer is. They've done more films like that than they've done Under the Red Hoods.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't have to explain it, because that's not what I meant. What I meant was, they wouldn't do that, that's not the sort of tweak they'd pull. If they were going to change something, it'd be more like the changes they made to Gotham by Gaslight and Hush. They're not into making miniscule tweaks like that, they go big and alter who the culprit is. I'd rather they not make big changes.

I think some of us are talking about how to adapt the story and tweak it in general, not just about how these people would do it.

The plot is the war on the mob, the rise of the colorful supervillains, the fall of Harvey Dent. The mystery facilitates those plots.

None of these plots would link together or be resolved together without the central mystery. It is very much the driving force behind the entire thing.

All that other stuff is more interesting than the mystery, which might be why stuff like TDK and The Batman pull some of those same basic ideas but ditch Holiday.

I very, very much disagree on that last part.


True. But there's no reason for them to pull another Gotham by Gaslight or Hush and change too damn much to a beloved Batman story (I'm not alone in loving it).

It's fine that you disagree, just as it's fine that not everyone has to love TLH as it is beyond the art and some of the basic ideas that have a lot of potential. You're not alone in loving it, never said you were, but I'm not alone in thinking it's overrated style over substance either.

And the stuff godisaweome laid out (specifically how Bruce does detective work) wouldn't be a major change to a beloved Batman story. It's not like this story is beloved for anything Batman does in it anyway: the artwork, the parade of villains, the atmosphere, the mob stuff, the holiday theme, the fall of Harvey, all of that stuff comes to mind more than anything Bruce himself does in the entire story.

[Vakanai]

I think some of us are talking about how to adapt the story and tweak it in general, not just about how these people would do it.




None of these plots would link together or be resolved together without the central mystery. It is very much the driving force behind the entire thing.

All that other stuff is more interesting than the mystery, which might be why stuff like TDK and The Batman pull some of those same basic ideas but ditch Holiday.




It's fine that you disagree, just as it's fine that not everyone has to love TLH as it is beyond the art and some of the basic ideas that have a lot of potential. You're not alone in loving it, never said you were, but I'm not alone in thinking it's overrated style over substance either.

And the stuff godisaweome laid out (specifically how Bruce does detective work) wouldn't be a major change to a beloved Batman story. It's not like this story is beloved for anything Batman does in it anyway: the artwork, the parade of villains, the atmosphere, the mob stuff, the holiday theme, the fall of Harvey, all of that stuff comes to mind more than anything Bruce himself does in the entire story.

Eh, maybe. Doesn't matter though - tweaks or no tweaks, it's already done. We'll just have to wait and see what they did now.
Here's hoping it's as good as Under the Red Head, Year One, or The Dark Knight Returns, and far from the likes of The Killing Joke and Hush.

[godisawesome]

And let's say it doesn't happen, and they change who the killer is. They've done more films like that than they've done Under the Red Hoods.

Well, here, I feel the fact they split the story in two means they shouldn’t have any reason to do that. Gotham by Gaslight got expanded because the previous story wasn’t big enough to make a movie from (and I’d say it was improved, actually), while Hush was too big to adapt as shortly as they wanted.

Plus... I could be wrong, but I think we can see they already modified the film a little bit: I don’t remember Catwoman lying on top of a huge pile of money, particularly what seems to be the Falcone’s pile of money... but if they have her personally lead them to the cash, that would be a fun change that doesn’t change the story.