Page 11 of 14 FirstFirst ... 7891011121314 LastLast
Results 151 to 165 of 201
  1. #151
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    Occupied Klendathu
    Posts
    12,881

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    Did J’onn’s telepathy cause these same issues?
    I think they thought it would have made J'onn redundant was also part of the reason. Haven't watched the show in a while though I seem to recall he got KO'd or knocked around when he tried using his mental powers or just didn't use it

  2. #152
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    The Ocean
    Posts
    3,682

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    Two more Pros:

    - The Lasso and its ability to protect her and others from mind control and illusions won't be disregarded as much if at all. Because we all know how in love Justice League and crossover stories love to contrive excuses for the heroes to fight each other. And, almost always, that requires writes to pretend the Lasso doesn't exist. Or worse, they will remember, but Diana won't be the one to do it. The recent animated movies seemed to be in love with this trick (Diana is possessed by Trigon, Superman frees her with the Lasso; Diana is tricked by an illusion, Zatanna ties her up in the Lasso; Diana is Darkseid's cyborg slave, Constantine uses the Lasso to free her, etc).
    And what a terrible loss it'll be for there to be fewer "heroes fight each other" stories, right?

    - Diana won't be shoe-horned into stories she doesn't need to be involved with just because it's a shared universe and she's Wonder Woman. Over in the Superman forum, there's a thread about Max Landis (ew) pitching a big Superman epic, and wouldn't you know, Wonder Woman's in it. And, shock of shocks, it's an awful interpretation of her character. Why is she even involved? Why bother including her?
    I just keep thinking about whenever DC announces some big event--whether it's for one character in particular or the universe overall--and the awful sense of dread knowing Diana most likely doesn't need to be in the story, the writer won't be bothered to give her a decent role, but she'll appear anyway because it's a shared universe and Wonder Woman "needs" to be around. Like whenever DC decides to rehash the Death of Superman for the eighth time, and we all know Diana doesn't need to be in, but she will be, and she's only going to be there to get her ass kicked. A big pro, in my book, not just for Wonder Woman but DC as a whole: being spared that grim sense of obligation that comes with every "big" story.
    Every time DC wants to use a mind control story with Diana in it, I wanna smack them on the back of the head. There's a good way to include Diana in a mind control story, but they always just resort to making Diana not use the lasso instead... why are writers so afraid of it? Plus is anyone even dying to see a mind control story? I know I'm not...

    And I read the "Kryptonian Epic" and Diana being turned into a "more-buff gladiator Wonder Woman with a limited view of Man's world" who is somehow manipulated by Lex Luthor into working for him just sounds...like they want her to be a dumb jock. Maybe it would work out better than that, but really, she doesn't need to be in the story.

    Also isn't Barbara a one-time fling of Superman in American Alien? Like...is that gonna play into the story at all? Is the Wonder Woman character going to be connected to Wonder Woman in this story?

  3. #153
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    He has interesting ideas for other characters, but his take on Wonder Woman is actually awful yes. I can't quite remember all of it but basically Themyscira is a hidden island populated by a misandrist cult that worships the greek gods and thinks men are an inferior race. The reason why they think that is because the island is surrounded by golden waters, and when women come out of the waters they become tall burly superhumans, while the men just die. Lex Luthor discovered the island and convince these women that he is Zeus (through the use of advanced technology) and now they serve him. So Diana starts out as an agent of Lex Luthor because she thinks he is a god.

    The first time Wonder Woman appears she fights Superman, Blue Beetle (in a Hulkbuster armor), Zatanna and Green Arrow and Aquaman. And she beats them all alone. She also ends up having a romance with Pete Ross in the future (but Max's version of Pete Ross is sort of a normal man that ends up getting in the middle of all these giant conflicts and showing bravery).

    So on one hand, Wonder Woman is extremely powerful and skilled, but on the other there are all those elements that just miss the point of the character.
    Why.... just why to all of this.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  4. #154
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    2,874

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    He has interesting ideas for other characters, but his take on Wonder Woman is actually awful yes. I can't quite remember all of it but basically Themyscira is a hidden island populated by a misandrist cult that worships the greek gods and thinks men are an inferior race. The reason why they think that is because the island is surrounded by golden waters, and when women come out of the waters they become tall burly superhumans, while the men just die. Lex Luthor discovered the island and convince these women that he is Zeus (through the use of advanced technology) and now they serve him. So Diana starts out as an agent of Lex Luthor because she thinks he is a god.

    The first time Wonder Woman appears she fights Superman, Blue Beetle (in a Hulkbuster armor), Zatanna and Green Arrow and Aquaman. And she beats them all alone. She also ends up having a romance with Pete Ross in the future (but Max's version of Pete Ross is sort of a normal man that ends up getting in the middle of all these giant conflicts and showing bravery).

    So on one hand, Wonder Woman is extremely powerful and skilled, but on the other there are all those elements that just miss the point of the character.
    I'm surprised she wasn't treated as a jobber. The only positive thing about what you described of this story.

  5. #155
    Jax City/Kill The FIremen
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Duuuuuvvaaalll!!!
    Posts
    1,452

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    I can compile a list;

    > The Hiketia - WW beats up Batman
    > JLA: League of One - Wonder Woman beats up the entire JLA
    > Wonder Woman: Dead Earth - Wonder Woman kills Superman
    > Rucka's first WW run- Wonder Woman throats Superman
    > Injustice: has a pretty famous scene where WW beats up Superman

    I can probably find more, though keep in mind I'm not saying this means "Wonder Woman" is the problematic character. Batman is pretty famous for doing this sort of stuff, but that's probably in part because of how many Batman books exists. I think its more telling that a lot of the Batman books that depict Wonder Woman and her rogues gallery poorly are bad comics with no meaningful legacy. Whereas Hiketia is still regarded as one of the greatest Wonder Woman comics...and its about Wonder Woman stepping on Batman.
    Diana in League of One couldn't wasn't even strong as Superman. She kicks him once and he takes her down like it's nothing. She says: "I knew I could never beat you in combat". Yeah. Bad example.

  6. #156
    Jax City/Kill The FIremen
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Duuuuuvvaaalll!!!
    Posts
    1,452

    Default

    Honestly, it's not the shared universe that's the problem. It's how DC treats Diana. Superman and Batman has been controlled by their fans for decades now, probably since the 70s or late-60s at this point. Superman and Batman gets the benefit (and cons) of being the big two and decades of fans controlling them. Diana on other hand, no. Simone, Jimenez, Rucka, are the three fans who actually care about the character to have done WW.
    The issue isn't the shared universe, it's the company. DC is horrible at handling the most iconic female comic book character.

  7. #157
    Jax City/Kill The FIremen
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Duuuuuvvaaalll!!!
    Posts
    1,452

    Default

    Because in Max Landis eyes, Superman's only strength is him being human. He's not fast as the Flash. Not strong as J'onn. Not smart as Batman. Not skilled as Wonder Woman. His only thing that makes him Superman is he's really human.

  8. #158
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    34,005

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DABellWrites View Post
    Honestly, it's not the shared universe that's the problem. It's how DC treats Diana. Superman and Batman has been controlled by their fans for decades now, probably since the 70s or late-60s at this point. Superman and Batman gets the benefit (and cons) of being the big two and decades of fans controlling them. Diana on other hand, no. Simone, Jimenez, Rucka, are the three fans who actually care about the character to have done WW.
    The issue isn't the shared universe, it's the company. DC is horrible at handling the most iconic female comic book character.
    You forgot Perez, Bardugo and De Liz (admittedly the latter two are Elseworlds writers).

  9. #159
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Naboo
    Posts
    5,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DABellWrites View Post
    Diana in League of One couldn't wasn't even strong as Superman. She kicks him once and he takes her down like it's nothing. She says: "I knew I could never beat you in combat". Yeah. Bad example.
    Not really, it's pretty much a 1 for 1 copy of the Batman and Superman fight in Batman: Hush and no one came away from that fight thinking it wasn't another example of Superman jobbing to Batman, even if Batman used Lois as a hostage and said his arms really hurt after punching Superman with kryptonite fists. You can pretty much always find an out in these fights that prove, "Well Batman really didn't beat Superman."

    These fights aren't about raw power, just like the Batman vs Superman fights aren't. If Wonder Woman tricks Superman, she wins, which she does in League of One. Also, the images of League of One clearly show Wonder Woman dominating Superman and the reverse isn't shown to the same extent at all, I just reviewed the fight. There is three panels of Wonder Woman tossing Superman around, but in the text that accompanies it, WW says Superman is stronger so that cancels the imagery? She is also not trying to kill or severely hurt Superman either (the refuse is obviously true). Also, even if you object specifically to the WW vs Superman fight, she still takes out all the other members of the JL too and definitely over powers them.
    #InGunnITrust, #ZackSnyderistheBlueprint, #ReleasetheAyerCut

  10. #160
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    Occupied Klendathu
    Posts
    12,881

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You forgot Perez, Bardugo and De Liz (admittedly the latter two are Elseworlds writers).
    Perez I think has said in interviews he didn’t really grow up a fan of WW until his professional career when he started doing JL and Titan stories.

  11. #161
    Jax City/Kill The FIremen
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Location
    Duuuuuvvaaalll!!!
    Posts
    1,452

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You forgot Perez, Bardugo and De Liz (admittedly the latter two are Elseworlds writers).
    Iconic as his run is, he was never a Wonder Woman fan, originally. He got onto the book to keep her from becoming what happened in the 90s and 00s. Plus, Perez already stated Karen Berger was instrumental to his Wonder Woman. The writers I mentioned were fans already, not later on.

  12. #162
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    5,275

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DABellWrites View Post
    Iconic as his run is, he was never a Wonder Woman fan, originally. He got onto the book to keep her from becoming what happened in the 90s and 00s. Plus, Perez already stated Karen Berger was instrumental to his Wonder Woman. The writers I mentioned were fans already, not later on.
    I know this kind of drags away from the point, but in terms of stories, the early 90s and early 2000s were quite generous to Diana (can't deny that the art in the 90s took a nosedive though).

    When Perez talked about not liking the ideas DC had for WW relaunch post Crisis, I doubt that those ideas were anything like the eras you mentioned.

  13. #163
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    34,005

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I know this kind of drags away from the point, but in terms of stories, the early 90s and early 2000s were quite generous to Diana (can't deny that the art in the 90s took a nosedive though).

    When Perez talked about not liking the ideas DC had for WW relaunch post Crisis, I doubt that those ideas were anything like the eras you mentioned.
    The early 2000s - specifically Rucka and Jiminez - I would say were good. Other than Artemis and Cassie (both of whom were developed better by writers other than their creators) not a whole lot of good came out of the 90s for Wonder Woman.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 06-04-2021 at 05:45 AM.

  14. #164
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    5,275

    Default

    Well William Messner-Loebs turned Diana into an actual person with a great personality, which I think is the biggest thing missing from the Perez run, while maintaining the idea that Diana wasn't violent, just powerful and determined.

    He wrote one of the best Dr Psycho stories in a surreal nightmare he creates for Diana and ended with the twist that this was actually him haunting Vanessa Kapatellis with the thought of being Diana, and Vanessa couldn't sleep at night because she knew he could still be around in her room, even while her mother held her.

    He gave Diana dozens of surprising supporting characters including fellow superheroes and heroines along with normal people that Diana came to know intimately. This included a female cosmonaut, a punk private detective, the female Doctor Fate Inza, Circe disguised as Diana's lawyer, Diana's boss at Taco Bell who treated her kindly like a normal employee, even though she was just a normal woman while Diana was a beautiful tall superhero. Virus

    And honestly, I think all these characters were far more interesting cases of Diana actually getting to know normal people, unlike Vanessa and Helena (whom the writer still respected enough to give them the spotlight in the beginning of his run, but his stories were a revolving door of characters in the best of ways).

    He gave us Diana the Space Pirate, the funny Taco Bell employee (I still love when the whole Justice League comes to visit Diana at her job), the detective searching for a little girl (Wonder Woman 64 is still one of the most gripping endings I've read in stories about missing children). She was both extraordinary and down to earth and did both things in the most genuine way possible.

    And I've never read the Eric Luke run but don't people like Devastation? She was introduced in his run. Eric Luke also gave us the only story arc with Dr Poison as the main villain as far as I know, with Pandora Virus.
    Last edited by Alpha; 06-04-2021 at 06:58 AM.

  15. #165
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    5,275

    Default

    And more to the point, I think William Messner-Loebs was a great example of Diana in a shared universe. He used a lot of other heries and villains in great ways. Diana's encounter with the Joker made Diana seems scarier than even him.

    Jiminez was also a great example of using characters from a shared universe like Gods of Gotham, but being plagued by editorial decisions. Which proves that a shared universe isn't the problem. Editorial mandates are the problem.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •