Page 1 of 11 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 154
  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    27,453

    Default Pros and Cons of A Not Being In A Shared Universe

    This is a thread to discuss what you feel are the benefits and losses of the Wonder Woman characters not being in a shared universe.

  2. #2
    Incredible Member mystical41's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    724

    Default

    To be honest. I think for a majority of her publication. Being in a shared universe has given her more cons than pros. We only have to look around and see the treatment of her verse compared to other characters. More often than not, it is her verse the one that writers use to step up other cxharacters. So i think being in her own universe would help a lot in not getting thrown under the bust like it has happened(and still happens) so many times.

  3. #3
    Extraordinary Member Gaius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    5,347

    Default

    The immediate benefit that springs to mind is no Trinity shipping, so the Batman and Superman writers would have to look elsewhere for a superheroine to demote to arm candy status.

    Despite what others say, I feel Wonder Woman did fine without being on the Justice League in the Post-Crisis years and modern JL hasn't contributed much of anything of note to WW's world, so no real loss there either.

    Donna and Cassie would probably be the real losers as the lion's share of their developments and relationships comes with being in a shared universe.
    Last edited by Gaius; 04-01-2021 at 10:37 AM.

  4. #4
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    The Ocean
    Posts
    1,441

    Default

    I honestly don't know if the character would have survived without a shared universe. So I guess there's that as a benefit. Also certain character interactions are fun.


    On the flip side, yeah the trinity shipping stuff wouldn't happen. I don't mind when they make fun of it in shows like the Harley Quinn cartoon, but when they try to actually make it work...bleh.

    Also her Wonder Family wouldn't have been stripped away from her.

    Edit: Yeah, also was Siege said about her villains being jobbed out. Especially Cheetah to the Bat family. Batman already has ever other animal themed villain, can Cheetah just be left out of it.
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 04-01-2021 at 01:25 PM.

  5. #5
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    12,545

    Default

    Most of the fun of the shared universe is seeing all the characters we love interact with each other. But the fun has been kind of sucked out of the entire gimmick, not just as it pertains to Wonder Woman. In particular the Trinity shipping is bad and she'd be better off without it. oddly, despite pre-COIE being considered worse for her by a lot of people, I feel her interactions with the other two and the JL in general weren't nearly as bad as it would become post-COIE and getting worse in the current age. Now the well is pretty poisoned.

    Her villains wouldn't job to other heroes, she would be as powerful as she could possibly be without stepping on the toes of other heroes (and vice versa), no Trinity shipping, she and the Amazons might actually be able to make progress in their mission, etc. I can't think of many positives for her being in a shared universe at this point, nor can I think of any for Superman or Batman

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    4,814

    Default

    First, I think the shared universe has been around for a very long time, arguably as long as there has been a DC comics (see All Star Comics), so removing it would go against a lot of DC's culture.

    From a marketing standpoint, I think it'd be disastrous for DC, at least short-term. The current focus of selling a large amount of product to a relatively small amount of customers is largely built on selling to fans of shared universes. But it could be a very good thing from a creative standpoint. All writers could get much greater freedom to pitch ideas, and editors could focus on improving stories rather than managing events.

    Though I think an event moratorium could give a lot of the upsides and avoid most of the downsides.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  7. #7
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    The Ocean
    Posts
    1,441

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    First, I think the shared universe has been around for a very long time, arguably as long as there has been a DC comics (see All Star Comics), so removing it would go against a lot of DC's culture.

    From a marketing standpoint, I think it'd be disastrous for DC, at least short-term. The current focus of selling a large amount of product to a relatively small amount of customers is largely built on selling to fans of shared universes. But it could be a very good thing from a creative standpoint. All writers could get much greater freedom to pitch ideas, and editors could focus on improving stories rather than managing events.

    Though I think an event moratorium could give a lot of the upsides and avoid most of the downsides.
    The shared universe definitely isn't going anywhere in the comics. DC has become quite dependent on it, and canceling it would get rid of a lot of books and upset a lot of fans.

    Every other medium though, could definitely survive without it. Batman and Superman both have. There are plenty of action mediums with female leads (including the 70's Wonder Woman show), so I have no doubt Wonder Woman would be just fine as well.
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 04-01-2021 at 01:50 PM.

  8. #8
    Spectacular Member rayray1127's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    204

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Most of the fun of the shared universe is seeing all the characters we love interact with each other. But the fun has been kind of sucked out of the entire gimmick, not just as it pertains to Wonder Woman. In particular the Trinity shipping is bad and she'd be better off without it. oddly, despite pre-COIE being considered worse for her by a lot of people, I feel her interactions with the other two and the JL in general weren't nearly as bad as it would become post-COIE and getting worse in the current age. Now the well is pretty poisoned.

    Her villains wouldn't job to other heroes, she would be as powerful as she could possibly be without stepping on the toes of other heroes (and vice versa), no Trinity shipping, she and the Amazons might actually be able to make progress in their mission, etc. I can't think of many positives for her being in a shared universe at this point, nor can I think of any for Superman or Batman
    I agree with all of the above. When I first discovered Wonder Woman, I thought she and the FF4 were the ONLY superheroes in their own little universes (I was 4). Then came my discovery of Lynda Carter WW at 7, which has ZERO hint that there were other known DC characters in her world.
    Imagine my shock at age 9 (1990), when I picked up my uncle's old pre-COIE JLA comic book and not only was WW surrounded by a bunch of OTHER super-people, she was't the leader in any way, and indeed, served as kind of cannon fodder in the issue (I don't remember what issue it was, it had no cover, so I have nothing to compare it to). That experience really put me off comics until I was about 11ish.

    But yes, I'd love a Diana that is the ONLY super powered being on her Earth, or at least, that any OTHER super powered being still come from her "world" (i.e. gods, monsters, other Amazons).

    The OTHER great thing would be that, for those like me who really only want to read Wonder Woman stories about Wonder Woman, no more pesky, multi-book "events". I don't want to have to read Infinite Frontier to "get" #770 (which I haven't read yet). If Diana existed as her own character, she'd have the space she needs to shine, as well as not always kicking me in my pocket book, or requiring I read stories that involve other characters I'm just not overly invested in.

    I don't really care what happens in Superman's world, and with Batman, I've always been more of a fan of his supporting characters, rather than Batman himself.

    My perfect comic book world would be for WW, Catwoman, Barbra Gordon, Dick Grayson, and Starfire to be the ONLY super heroes on Earth, Diana is the obvious leader and inspiration, Batman was a legendary anti-hero, partially inspired by WW's debut, who was put into a coma after Dick left for college and dies before Dick can get back to him (therefore, angst). Starfire keeps her normal origin, but this time is adopted and trained by WW and Wonder Queen, giving her a kind of Kory/Donna hybridization.... I could go on, but I won't.

    Suffice to say, I know it's somethig a lot of us would love to see, but I don't believe it will ever happen.... In THIS reality, anyway.... Lol!
    Last edited by rayray1127; 04-01-2021 at 01:53 PM.
    Peace and love to ALL!
    Ray
    **=w=**

  9. #9
    Mighty Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    The Ocean
    Posts
    1,441

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rayray1127 View Post
    I agree with all of the above. When I first discovered Wonder Woman, I though she and the FF4 were the ONLY superheroes in their own little universes (I was 4). Then came my discovery of Lynda Carter WW at 7, which has ZERO hint that there are other known DC characters in her world. Imagine my shock at age 9 (1990) I picked up my uncle's old pre-COIE JL book and not only was WW surrounded by a bunch of OTHER super-people, she was't the leader in any way, and indeed, served as kind of cannon fodder in the issue (I don't remember what issue it was, it had no cover, so I have nothing to compare it to).

    This experience really put me off comics until I was about 11ish.

    But yes, I'd love a Diana that is the ONLY super powered being in Earth, or at least that any OTHER super powered being still come from her "world" (i.e. gods, monsters, other Amazons).

    The OTHER great thing would be that, for those like me who really only want to read Wonder Woman stories about Wonder Woman, no more pesky, multi-book "events". I don't want to have to read Infinite Frontier to "get" #770 (which I haven't read yet). If Diana existed as her own character, she'd have the space she needs to shine, as well as not always kicking me in my pocket book, or requiring I read stories that involve other characters I'm just not overly invested in.

    I don't really care what happens in Superman's world, and with Batman, I've always been more of a fan of his supporting characters, rather than Batman himself.

    My perfect comic book world would be for WW, Catwoman, Barbra Gordon, Dick Grayson, and Starfire to be the ONLY super heroes on Earth, Diana is the obvious leader and inspiration, Batman was a legendary anti-hero, partially inspired by WW's debut, who was put in to a coma after Dick left for college and dies before Dick can get to him (therefore, angst). Starfire keeps her normal origin, but this time is adopted and trained by WW and Wonder Queen, giving her a kind of Kory/Donna hybridization.... I could go on, but I won't.

    Suffice to say, I know it's somethig a lot of us would love to see, but I don't believe it will ever happen.... In THIS reality, anyway.... Lol!
    You'd actually like #770 of WW then because she is the only DC superhero in that arc. Not another DC hero in sight (or on the same reality).

    And I don't think you have to read Infinite Frontier to understand issue #770. It's honestly more of a layout for other character (including Hippolyta, Nubia and Yara) than it is for Diana herself.

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member Gaius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    5,347

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    You'd actually like #770 of WW then because she is the only DC superhero in that arc. Not another DC hero in sight (or on the same reality).

    And I don't think you have to read Infinite Frontier to understand issue #770. It's honestly more of a layout for other character (including Hippolyta, Nubia and Yara) than it is for Diana herself.
    It also starts kind of in media res, so we're as lost as Diana is.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,796

    Default

    I think it's just a lack of balance. With Wonder Woman we get a lot of content where she is an ensemble character but not enough of her as a solo character.

  12. #12

    Default

    PRO:
    - She'll be allowed to be the actual best that she can be, instead of dealing with the glass of ceiling of not being allowed to surpass Superman or whoever the writer's pet character happens to be in a given story. So when she referred to as one of the best fighters or strongest beings, she can actually back it up instead of getting promptly crushed by Doomsday or Mongol or Black Adam or whoever.

    - She'll actually matter, instead of being cannon fodder or inconsequential if Superman isn't around. Even if she loses a fight or encounters someone stronger/better than her, it will be about how she deals with and overcomes it, instead of it being about some other hero finishing the job she can't.

    - The writers would be forced to rely on her actual rogues instead of borrowing villains from other franchises. Further, her villains will therefore be built up as actual threats instead of jobbers for other heroes to slap around.

    - She wouldn't be pigeon-holed and shallowed into an assigned role in order to fit into the larger group. When teamed with the Justice League, she (along with pretty much every hero there) has to be distilled into a simplified label at the expense of everything else about her because on a team, she's just one piece of a whole. In her case, usually "the warrior" because she can't be the strongest (Superman) or smartest (Batman) or most empathetic (usually Martian Manhunter). So she becomes "the warrior" which doesn't really mean anything and often just amounts to "the one with the sword."

    - Her character can be defined by who and what she is, rather than in relation to Superman and Batman. Because, honestly, a lot of the labels and roles assigned to Diana seem like they come from: "Well, Superman is this and Batman is that, so I guess Diana will have to be..." In her own universe, she can just be Wonder Woman and everything that goes with it.

    - On a similar note, her continuity won't have to be bent around how it fits with other characters. I'm thinking mainly how it's played out in the movies where they decided Wonder Woman has been around since World War I, but no one can know about her because they want Superman to be the "first" hero.

    - She won't be reduced to the prize for Superman or Batman (or some other Justice League member) to sleep with.

    - Her mythology can be developed on its own without getting stepped on by DC's other mythologies. Like how sometimes writers can't seem to figure how the Greek gods fit in with the New Gods or the Source or the Spectre or Shazam and, more often than not, they just get thrown under the bus--and, by extension, Diana along with them. Because if the Greek gods are just piss-ants compared to Darkseid and his crew, what does that say about Wonder Woman and the Amazons?

    - Her big, world-threatening events can be big world-threatening events without first checking on Superman's status (looking at you, Immortal Wonder Woman, a story about Diana at the end of the universe where she spends most of the time thinking about how Superman dealt with it).

    CON:
    - There are some characters and foes outside her franchise it would be fun for Diana to meet. Like, I wouldn't mind the occasional encounter with someone like Poison Ivy. Or a fight with Solomon Grundy or Maxima. Diana and Amanda Waller butting heads could be a fun story. Contending with Darkseid, Granny Goodness and the Female Furies here and there. Having her interact with another hero she has actual chemistry with can be fun. In small doses...not at the expense of her own rogues and supporting cast.

    - Diana being a member of the Justice League and prominent part of the greater DC universe exposes her to a wider audiences and makes her at least appear to be an important character worth paying attention to. Of course, it's undermined with those appearances are written like crap...

    - Donna and Cassie have benefited more from their appearances in Titans and Young Justice than in Diana's title.
    "Never place your trust in us. We're only human. Inevitably, we will disappoint you."


  13. #13
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    12,545

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    She wouldn't be pigeon-holed and shallowed into an assigned role in order to fit into the larger group. When teamed with the Justice League, she (along with pretty much every hero there) has to be distilled into a simplified label at the expense of everything else about her because on a team, she's just one piece of a whole. In her case, usually "the warrior" because she can't be the strongest (Superman) or smartest (Batman) or most empathetic (usually Martian Manhunter). So she becomes "the warrior" which doesn't really mean anything and often just amounts to "the one with the sword."
    This is definitely a problem I see face all the heroes, not just her (though it hits her very hard in a specific dumb way)

    It's another advantage the pre-COIE Satellite era seemed to have over the supposedly more "sophisticated" modern stuff. I don't think the characters were pigeon holed like this.

  14. #14
    Extraordinary Member Gaius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    5,347

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    PRO:
    - Her character can be defined by who and what she is, rather than in relation to Superman and Batman. Because, honestly, a lot of the labels and roles assigned to Diana seem like they come from: "Well, Superman is this and Batman is that, so I guess Diana will have to be..." In her own universe, she can just be Wonder Woman and everything that goes with it.

    CON:
    - Diana being a member of the Justice League and prominent part of the greater DC universe exposes her to a wider audiences and makes her at least appear to be an important character worth paying attention to. Of course, it's undermined with those appearances are written like crap...
    I think these two are interlocking, "The Trinity" has certainly helped place her on a higher level by closer association with Batman and Superman but yeah it feels like the actual relationship between them is just "The World's Finest and Diana the girl wonder". So her differences to them are defined by them, not thinking on how it comes from Diana's POV. The biggest one usually being "Superman and Batman don't kill, so she does"*

    *Yes, we're all aware Bruce and Clark have broken their no kill-rule but as far DC is generally concerned, those instances are aberrations not the norm.
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    This is definitely a problem I see face all the heroes, not just her (though it hits her very hard in a specific dumb way)

    It's another advantage the pre-COIE Satellite era seemed to have over the supposedly more "sophisticated" modern stuff. I don't think the characters were pigeon holed like this.
    Yeah, I'd say it hurts WW more because she's usually the character on the main roster (aside from Manhunter or Cyborg, who usually have nothing ) who's book has the least amount of eyes on it, so JL writers end up having way more say on how Diana's presented than the actual writers on her own book.

    But I'd say this criticism applies to a lot of the others; Superman = "naive farmboy", Batman = "Batgod who treats everyone like a pleb", Hal = "idiot jock who couldn't tie his own shoes", Aquaman = "Namor wannabe" etc
    Last edited by Gaius; 04-01-2021 at 07:40 PM.

  15. #15
    Incredible Member mystical41's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    724

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    This is definitely a problem I see face all the heroes, not just her (though it hits her very hard in a specific dumb way)

    It's another advantage the pre-COIE Satellite era seemed to have over the supposedly more "sophisticated" modern stuff. I don't think the characters were pigeon holed like this.
    I don't think any other character suffers from that as much as her. And her case is pretty obvious. For how important she is supposed to be. Yet the actual results with the way many writers treat her show otherwise.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •