Pros and Cons of A Not Being In A Shared Universe

[Geraldofrivia]

Pros: We would not even have got a movie if it weren't for the shared universe

Cons: I don't see any. Wonder Woman universe and power level will be just as messed up.

[Agent Z]

- Donna and Cassie have benefited more from their appearances in Titans and Young Justice than in Diana's title.

Then again, these franchise's haven't done them much good either as of recent.

This is definitely a problem I see face all the heroes, not just her (though it hits her very hard in a specific dumb way)

It's another advantage the pre-COIE Satellite era seemed to have over the supposedly more "sophisticated" modern stuff. I don't think the characters were pigeon holed like this.

They absolutely were. It's just more glaring now since we expect better. Let's not forget that Diana's role on JSA was as a secretary.

I don't think any other character suffers from that as much as her. And her case is pretty obvious. For how important she is supposed to be. Yet the actual results with the way many writers treat her show otherwise.

I can think of three that suffer from it as much or more than her. She is definitely the most visible but others certainly have it as bad or worse.

[kjn]

Thinking of the various pros and cons another turn, and I think that while discoupling DC's shared universe would lead to some benefits (like greater creative freedom for most writers, and better focus on editorials as editors rather than managers), it won't solve the problems that plague Wonder Woman and other characters.

The core problem is poor understanding of the character. If you don't understand the character deep down, then no matter how good the writing is, you will treat the character badly. On the other hand, a good understanding of the character coupled with poor writing will at least be interesting.

Take Gail Simone, who I think has strengths as a writer but mostly is average. But in the stories by her I've read, she's always brought a great understanding of the characters. As a result, her use of Black Canary and Power Girl in Wonder Woman are celebrated, because she managed to make them secondary to Wonder Woman while celebrating their capabilities.

[Tzigone]

I don't think any other character suffers from that as much as her. And her case is pretty obvious. For how important she is supposed to be. Yet the actual results with the way many writers treat her show otherwise.

I can't agree. I absolutely think others suffer as much. I also don't think "how important she's supposed to be" works near as much outside a shared universe that grants her some sort of seniority. It's only being around so long and early popularity that give her her rank now (well, until recent movie success). And she never had as broad a popularity as Batman or Superman, though certainly she brought in some merchandising dollars. I like her, but I don't think it's "unfair" that she never got the same treatment as them over the decades when she didn't bring in the same money. Other older heroes certainly ended up in much worse positions. Mind you, I do very much think DC needs to work to deepen its bench and not depend on Batman so much. I do think other characters have been sacrificed in a terrible way to glorify his. But I just don't think the default should be "whatever they get, she gets" in terms of animated series, etc. just because she's an older female character.

While they do need to work on her if they really want to sell that she's equally important (I have no idea when that idea started, to be honest), but they have occasionally tried to do so in the past. Failed miserably several times. But when they've made several attempts and haven't gotten the result they want, lipservice is what you end up with. For Superman, too, though even the lipservice is going away these days. But he, as a character, is much more part of American culture due to past fame - people know his home planet, his weakness to Kryptonite, who Lex Luthor and Lois Lane are, etc. Though, I can see that fading in time. I do wonder if, with all the superhero movies of the day, it will lead Superman to "one of many" instead the more standout event of the older movies.

And tv doesn't do it either, anymore. Everything is so much more segmented now, with so many more options. What people watch, read, etc. You don't have that one thing that everyone (at least of age bracket) either watches/reads or knows about because other people do. Makes it more difficult for a character to be a lasting part of pop culture.

[I'm a Fish]

I can't agree. I absolutely think others suffer as much. I also don't think "how important she's supposed to be" works near as much outside a shared universe that grants her some sort of seniority. It's only being around so long and early popularity that give her her rank now. And she never had as broad a popularity as Batman or Superman. I like her, but I don't think it's "unfair" that she never got the same treatment as them over the decades when she didn't bring in the same money. Other older heroes certainly ended up in much worse positions.

Indeed. Batman didn't become top dog until late 80's/90's with the help of Frank Miller, the Tim Burton movies and the animated series.

Wonder Woman was big when she debuted, but she was heavily tied to WWll and Marston died shortly after the war ended, so he never really got to expand her character beyond that. It was left to other writers, and well...it took 40 years for someone to do it right (in the comics anyway). She wasn't the only character to suffer from this either, Captain America was literally put on ice!

The only success inbetween that was the Lynda Carter 70's show and much like the Adam West Batman it is very much a product of its time (not that that makes in unenjoyable, but many older shows dont age smoothly). I'd say elements of that show did cross over to Wonder Woman down the line.

George Perez's run was a great start, but sadly it too suffered after he left and couldn't quite keep the ball rolling. But he inspired enough people and with the 2017 movie finally proving to WB that Diana is a moneymaker when you get the right people together, something which is true for any franchise, really.

Edit: Wonder Woman has persisted in pop culture due to her strong ties with the feminist movement. That's what makes her more unique than many other superhero, and I think that's why people feel like she's more "deserving" in a sense, because she was created to stand for something more than just a power fantasy (in the case of Superman).

[SiegePerilous02]

They absolutely were. It's just more glaring now since we expect better. Let's not forget that Diana's role on JSA was as a secretary.

In what ways were they pigeonholed? We certainly didn't get Wonder Woman the generic angry warrior that we sometimes get now, or Batman the smart guy who knows and does everything.

JSA is not Earth-1 JLA and it's not the same history. Even with the JSA, while that is an embarrassing bit of trivia, it also wasn't permanent. She started going on missions more and especially by the time Black Canary also joined. There is also the bronze age Earth-2 history and her legacy with Fury, etc. She's suffered way worse since then.

[Gaius]

You know what's funny about the JSA Secretary thing is apparently that because Marston didn't like it when WW wasn't written by him so her being the secretary was a compromise for her to be on the team but essentially just be a cameo.

[I'm a Fish]

You know what's funny about the JSA Secretary thing is apparently that because Marston didn't like it when WW wasn't written by him so her being the secretary was a compromise for her to be on the team but essentially just be a cameo.

Pft. Dang it, Marston. Sometimes it's one-step-forward, two-steps-back with this guy.

[Agent Z]

In what ways were they pigeonholed? We certainly didn't get Wonder Woman the generic angry warrior that we sometimes get now, or Batman the smart guy who knows and does everything.

JSA is not Earth-1 JLA and it's not the same history. Even with the JSA, while that is an embarrassing bit of trivia, it also wasn't permanent. She started going on missions more and especially by the time Black Canary also joined. There is also the bronze age Earth-2 history and her legacy with Fury, etc. She's suffered way worse since then.

Has she really?



Hell, I'd even take Azzarello's run over something like this.

[SiegePerilous02]

Has she really?



Hell, I'd even take Azzarello's run over something like this.

The points of discussion were her ties to the Satellite JLA and how people conflate her lousy post-COIE history with the JLA as being something that always bad, when it's debatable that that was the case.

This is an example from poor decisions from her own book, so that's a different discussion. Even the annoying stuff that crept into JLA as a result of this still owes itself to her book doing it first, not vice versa.

Also doesn't prove how she or the other JLA members were either as or more simplified/pigeonholed than they are in later stuff.

[Agent Z]

The points of discussion were her ties to the Satellite JLA and how people conflate her lousy post-COIE history with the JLA as being something that always bad, when it's debatable that that was the case.

This is an example from poor decisions from her own book, so that's a different discussion. Even the annoying stuff that crept into JLA as a result of this still owes itself to her book doing it first, not vice versa.

Also doesn't prove how she or the other JLA members were either as or more simplified/pigeonholed than they are in later stuff.

I'd say she was kind of pigeon-holed in the case of being "the girl" in that her gender kind of defined who she was in the most shallow ways. See the secretary thing (yeah it was temporary but could you imagine them doing that to a guy?) and even the Wonder Woman/Batman ship had its roots in that era.

[SiegePerilous02]

I'd say she was kind of pigeon-holed in the case of being "the girl" in that her gender kind of defined who she was in the most shallow ways. See the secretary thing (yeah it was temporary but could you imagine them doing that to a guy?) and even the Wonder Woman/Batman ship had its roots in that era.

In what way was she really "the girl" in JLA though? Have you read Silver Age justice League? Because while she's literally the only woman for the first years, she's still treated as a competent powerhouse and the equal of the men. She certainly fares far better there than Sue Storm over in FF around the same time. It became less of a problem when Black Canary, Hawkgirl and Zatanna joined the team in the bronze age

Again, JLA history does not equal JSA history. Even so, the secretary thing is stupid and embarrassing, but also wasn't a key story component that did any long term damage and needed to be referenced a lot. Earth-2 Wonder Woman went on to do other things. Stuff like the generic warrior woman and the fallout surrounding stuff like IC and Amazons Attack do far more damage than anything pre-Crisis on either of the Multiverse teams. People just conflate the post-COIE bad stuff with it always being a severe problem for her, but it's an exaggeration. JSA secretary is pretty much the worst thing to be born out of either team book, and it's bad but she bounced back from it by just being an active member of the team, All-Star Squadron, etc.

[Gaius]

I'd say she was kind of pigeon-holed in the case of being "the girl" in that her gender kind of defined who she was in the most shallow ways. See the secretary thing (yeah it was temporary but could you imagine them doing that to a guy?) and even the Wonder Woman/Batman ship had its roots in that era.

I wouldn't really say it's fair to blame Pre-Crisis JL on WW/BM shipping, since from what I can tell it's a few panels at most. As far most are concerned it began with the the DCAU with comics around the time and later on playing with the idea also. And given Timm in general had a tendency to ship women with Bruce regardless of if it made sense or had any form of comic history to back it up, I doubt he needed some select panels from the Silver Age to justify making Diana have a school girl crush on Bruce.

Same with how as far as many our concerned, Diana being an item with Clark started with Kingdom Come. There is earlier stuff showing a possible attraction but some of those stories also ended with them pointing out what a bad idea it is.

[SiegePerilous02]

I wouldn't really say it's fair to blame Pre-Crisis JL on WW/BM shipping, since from what I can tell it's a few panels at most. As far most are concerned it began with the the DCAU with comics around the time and later on playing with the idea also. And given Timm in general had a tendency to ship women with Bruce regardless of if it made sense, I doubt he needed some select panels from the Silver Age to justify making Diana have a school girl crush on Bruce.

Same with how as far as many our concerned, Diana being an item with Clark started with Kingdom Come.

There is also that Bruce is far more likable back then compared to how he would be later. So ship teasing them back then (and I agree, it seems minor) wouldn't come across as insulting to Diana as it would be with Bruce's later incarnations

Who wouldn't want to hook up with Bronze Age Bruce?

[DochaDocha]

Maybe it'd be better if WW had a shared DC multiverse instead of a shared universe. Let them cross dimensions and meet each other, but throughout the most part, it's not like WW can just fly over to Metropolis or some place.

It'd be like how when DC acquired the Marvel family, the Marvels were from Earth S.