Pros and Cons of A Not Being In A Shared Universe

[Agent Z]

Well William Messner-Loebs turned Diana into an actual person with a great personality,

YMMV I guess. Loebs didn't "turn Diana into an actual person" anymore than anyone else in my view.

And I've never read the Eric Luke run but don't people like Devastation?

I think she's an idea with interesting potential that rarely gets utilizied

Eric Luke also gave us the only story arc with Dr Poison as the main villain as far as I know, with Pandora Virus.

I don't remember anything great about that arc which I think speaks to its quality. Then again, I can count the number of interesting uses of Dr. Poison on one hand.

Also, I found it rather hard to get attached to Loebs's and Luke's characters and found them rather flat aside from a few with some interesting designs. I also think Loebs at times blundered when he tried to tackle heavy topics and began the trend of the Bana being much more filled with unfortunate implications.

[Agent Z]

And more to the point, I think William Messner-Loebs was a great example of Diana in a shared universe. He used a lot of other heries and villains in great ways. Diana's encounter with the Joker made Diana seems scarier than even him.

I suppose I can give him the Joker thing. Other than that, everything else he did wasn't all that special. Maybe ok.

Jiminez was also a great example of using characters from a shared universe like Gods of Gotham, but being plagued by editorial decisions. Which proves that a shared universe isn't the problem. Editorial mandates are the problem.

Maybe but I think at this rate, the risk outweighs the reward. Superman has a t.v. show that thus far acknowledges very little from the Arrowverse and seems to be doing great.

But YMMV.

[WonderLight789]

Not really, it's pretty much a 1 for 1 copy of the Batman and Superman fight in Batman: Hush and no one came away from that fight thinking it wasn't another example of Superman jobbing to Batman, even if Batman used Lois as a hostage and said his arms really hurt after punching Superman with kryptonite fists. You can pretty much always find an out in these fights that prove, "Well Batman really didn't beat Superman."

These fights aren't about raw power, just like the Batman vs Superman fights aren't. If Wonder Woman tricks Superman, she wins, which she does in League of One. Also, the images of League of One clearly show Wonder Woman dominating Superman and the reverse isn't shown to the same extent at all, I just reviewed the fight. There is three panels of Wonder Woman tossing Superman around, but in the text that accompanies it, WW says Superman is stronger so that cancels the imagery? She is also not trying to kill or severely hurt Superman either (the refuse is obviously true). Also, even if you object specifically to the WW vs Superman fight, she still takes out all the other members of the JL too and definitely over powers them.

league of one was a soft lip service with some on panel action for WW. She wasn't truly shown as being capable of taking all JL members based on power and skills. As she had to trick most of them. And she wasn't on SM's level either. Just because there were some ''cool'' images of WW beating up jl. doesn't mean it was presented in a way that actually showed her on par with Green Lantern, MM or SM in power. As usual, DC makes sure that there is context and other tricks involved, when WW ''beats'' some of the main boys of their universe.

[Shimbo]

league of one was a soft lip service with some on panel action for WW. She wasn't truly shown as being capable of taking all JL members based on power and skills. As she had to trick most of them. And she wasn't on SM's level either. Just because there were some ''cool'' images of WW beating up jl. doesn't mean it was presented in a way that actually showed her on par with Green Lantern, MM or SM in power. As usual, DC makes sure that there is context and other tricks involved, when WW ''beats'' some of the main boys of their universe.

But she's allowed to win, lol. Most hero on hero fights aren't won on a strictly stat by stat basis anywho. So what, she used different means. I thought the Wisdom of Athena and upbringing would certainly teach her strategy and other methods to ascertain victory. And she saves them all from death. Kills Drakul Karfang. It literally even ends with the JL congratulating her haha.

I personally would LOVE a situation where Diana, for whatever inane reason, has to "secure" the JL and she uses wit, planning, and character and psychological analysis to do it, without needing to literally curb stomp her friends.

[AmiMizuno]

In dynamite they have a superhero team called Project Superhero. Where all the Superheroes from dimensions team up. So this can easily explain how Diana knows a Superman or Superman knows a Batman. This is how a JL comic can be worked. They are all superheroes from different dimensions.

[Agent Z]

Not really, it's pretty much a 1 for 1 copy of the Batman and Superman fight in Batman: Hush and no one came away from that fight thinking it wasn't another example of Superman jobbing to Batman, even if Batman used Lois as a hostage and said his arms really hurt after punching Superman with kryptonite fists. You can pretty much always find an out in these fights that prove, "Well Batman really didn't beat Superman."

Except your argument was that League of One is a story in which "Diana beats up the entire Justice League", which implies she did win through raw power. So this is just moving the goal posts.

She doesn't even rely on raw power in all of the battles:
* She uses the Lasso of Truth on J'onn while he is distracted.
* She steals Kyle's ring from while giving him a hug.
* Uses a sea monster to keep Aquaman occupied.
* She enlists a forest nymph's aid in capturing Flash by using a vine to trip him.
* The only one whom she actually beats through physical might is Batman.

Also, the images of League of One clearly show Wonder Woman dominating Superman and the reverse isn't shown to the same extent at all, I just reviewed the fight.

You may want to review it again.




Also note that the tone and premise of this story is very different from when Superman and Batman fight. In Superman vs Batman battles, the one or both of them has been compromised somehow making it more like a battle between adversaries. This is not the case with Wonder Woman's battles against the League where the focus is on her trying to keep them safe as opposed to fighting them because she or they have turned evil for some reason. The main takeaway from this story was about how far Diana would go to protect her friends not if she could defeat the entire League.

And even if you allow for this, it still doesn't mean Diana bests Superman most of the time.

[Agent Z]

In dynamite they have a superhero team called Project Superhero. Where all the Superheroes from dimensions team up. So this can easily explain how Diana knows a Superman or Superman knows a Batman. This is how a JL comic can be worked. They are all superheroes from different dimensions.

I was thinking about this too. Diana not being in the same universe as other superhero doesn't eliminate the possibility of team ups. The Arrowverse even did this before merging the universes together.

[Alpha]

I can see some minor potential in having Diana in her own universe because it would allow her to actually transform society. But DC wouldn't actually let this happen even then.
And editorial mandates are the thing that has hurt some runs the most. These same mandates would exist if Diana was off in her own universe. Infinite Crisis wouldn't have been any better if Diana was in her own universe, because she still would have killed Maxwell Lord in front of Superman and have been treated the same way by the JL.

[Agent Z]

I can see some minor potential in having Diana in her own universe because it would allow her to actually transform society. But DC wouldn't actually let this happen even then.
And editorial mandates are the thing that has hurt some runs the most. These same mandates would exist if Diana was off in her own universe. Infinite Crisis wouldn't have been any better if Diana was im her iwn universe, because she still would have killed Maxwell Lord in front of Superman and have been treated tge sane way by the JL.

That makes no sense. If Diana was in her own universe, there would be no Max Lord for her to kill and no Justice League to shun her for it.

[Alpha]

Weren't you proposing that Wonder Woman had her own earth and the Justice League stories would be interdimensional crossovers?
Identity Crisis was the major event of that period, so Wonder Woman would be in it and thus travel to some universe where those characters existed.

[DABellWrites]

I know this kind of drags away from the point, but in terms of stories, the early 90s and early 2000s were quite generous to Diana (can't deny that the art in the 90s took a nosedive though).

When Perez talked about not liking the ideas DC had for WW relaunch post Crisis, I doubt that those ideas were anything like the eras you mentioned.

I meant the art, granted this was across the board in the industry.

[Alpha]

Gotta say though, that even if someone doesn't think any of the William Messner-Loebs stories were anything special, he did a lot to show how much could be done with Diana. His Wonder Woman crossed all genres.

He explored the social issues she could deal with, the sci fi and fantasy, the surreal dreamworld (including the astral plane), gave her all kinds of supporting characters, showed Diana as someone funny, terrifying, intelligent, adventurous, creative, nurturing, confident, vulnerable, and yet maintained the idea that Diana is totally straight forward as a character and puts everything on the table when she meets someone. He used Hippolyta in a meaningful way, Vanessa Kapatellis and her mother in a meaningful way twice in a meaningful way, even used Etta Candy better than Perez did, used Circe as a grand villain as well as a manipulator capable of getting close to Diana.

If there are three runs that show the diversity of the character it's his, Marston's and Jiminez.

[WonderScott]

I think Diana can have both, but DC has done an incredibly poor job over the years of establishing, investing in, maintaining, changing and updating through the eras, and adding to her mythos and concepts over the decades.

Batman has received the greatest amount of investment and constantly plays with and renews his concepts across styles, tones, etc. He exists in his own space as well as with the greater DCU.

Wonder Woman is absolutely worthy of this type of investment and was built for it from her origin. It’s wildly amusing that Batman and his mythos get all the attention and focus on psychology, when Wonder Woman did that from the get go.

[Pinsir]

Except your argument was that League of One is a story in which "Diana beats up the entire Justice League", which implies she did win through raw power. So this is just moving the goal posts.

She doesn't even rely on raw power in all of the battles.

I did clarify though that I wasn't talking about raw power, just like the Batman vs Superman fights aren't about raw power. I just find it strange that the two foremost Wonder Woman graphic novels, Hiketiea and League of One both feature Wonder Woman fighting other superheroes. It does comes across as overcompensating and is one of the reasons I've never really cared for them.

[Agent Z]

I did clarify though that I wasn't talking about raw power, just like the Batman vs Superman fights aren't about raw power.

Which you only did after it was pointed out that most of your examples actually did not involve Diana winning against Superman as you implied.

I just find it strange that the two foremost Wonder Woman graphic novels, Hiketiea and League of One both feature Wonder Woman fighting other superheroes. It does comes across as overcompensating and is one of the reasons I've never really cared for them.

Compared to the multiple stories Superman and Batman have of them doing this to other superheroes, Hiketiea and League of One barely even qualify as a drop in the bucket. Not to mention, the former has her fail to save Billie and the latter still enforces that she is not as strong as Superman.

I mean, really look at how these fights are crafted and ask yourself who is really overcompensating here? When Wonder Woman battles other superheroes, she either doesn't win or its just a minor part of a bigger story. With Superman and Batman, them asserting their dominance over other heroes is pretty much the point.