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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Maybe it'd be better if WW had a shared DC multiverse instead of a shared universe. Let them cross dimensions and meet each other, but throughout the most part, it's not like WW can just fly over to Metropolis or some place.

    It'd be like how when DC acquired the Marvel family, the Marvels were from Earth S.
    Spider-verse style?

    Yeah, that'd be cool.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    In what way was she really "the girl" in JLA though? Have you read Silver Age justice League? Because while she's literally the only woman for the first years, she's still treated as a competent powerhouse and the equal of the men. She certainly fares far better there than Sue Storm over in FF around the same time. It became less of a problem when Black Canary, Hawkgirl and Zatanna joined the team in the bronze age

    Again, JLA history does not equal JSA history. Even so, the secretary thing is stupid and embarrassing, but also wasn't a key story component that did any long term damage and needed to be referenced a lot. Earth-2 Wonder Woman went on to do other things. Stuff like the generic warrior woman and the fallout surrounding stuff like IC and Amazons Attack do far more damage than anything pre-Crisis on either of the Multiverse teams. People just conflate the post-COIE bad stuff with it always being a severe problem for her, but it's an exaggeration. JSA secretary is pretty much the worst thing to be born out of either team book, and it's bad but she bounced back from it by just being an active member of the team, All-Star Squadron, etc.
    I guess I was wrong. I concede that point.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I can't agree. I absolutely think others suffer as much. I also don't think "how important she's supposed to be" works near as much outside a shared universe that grants her some sort of seniority. It's only being around so long and early popularity that give her her rank now (well, until recent movie success). And she never had as broad a popularity as Batman or Superman, though certainly she brought in some merchandising dollars. I like her, but I don't think it's "unfair" that she never got the same treatment as them over the decades when she didn't bring in the same money. Other older heroes certainly ended up in much worse positions. Mind you, I do very much think DC needs to work to deepen its bench and not depend on Batman so much. I do think other characters have been sacrificed in a terrible way to glorify his. But I just don't think the default should be "whatever they get, she gets" in terms of animated series, etc. just because she's an older female character.

    While they do need to work on her if they really want to sell that she's equally important (I have no idea when that idea started, to be honest), but they have occasionally tried to do so in the past. Failed miserably several times. But when they've made several attempts and haven't gotten the result they want, lipservice is what you end up with. For Superman, too, though even the lipservice is going away these days. But he, as a character, is much more part of American culture due to past fame - people know his home planet, his weakness to Kryptonite, who Lex Luthor and Lois Lane are, etc. Though, I can see that fading in time. I do wonder if, with all the superhero movies of the day, it will lead Superman to "one of many" instead the more standout event of the older movies.

    And tv doesn't do it either, anymore. Everything is so much more segmented now, with so many more options. What people watch, read, etc. You don't have that one thing that everyone (at least of age bracket) either watches/reads or knows about because other people do. Makes it more difficult for a character to be a lasting part of pop culture.
    Let's not act like anything can become big without promotion and marketing to push the brand. WW never had the same level of promotion and exposure throughout media that Batman and Superman had. So it is just ridiculous to expect her to bring the same amount of money, when they have never given her the same chances. In fact, WW has proven many times her potential, yet they still didn't do much with her. Her debut comic was a very good seller. Yet sexism got her and after marston died. She was stuck in many mediocre stories where she was more concern about getting married than being a hero. The TV show was a hit. Yet what did they do with that momentum? They had her losing her powers and becoming a spyn in the comics. Her 2009 animated movie is one of the top selling animated movies in DC. Yet they did nothing to try to keep building on that. Her 2017 film was a big hit. Her solo debut film did far better than any SM film in the last 4 decades. Yet you don't see them trying much with her brand. And they still threw her under the bus in jl movie and did nothing with her verse in the comics. In the meantime. Marvel turned a very unknown character for the GP such as Carol Danvers, into the first female lead comic book movie to gross over a billion. Had no problem making her the strongest hero in their cinematic universe, and are pushing her to become a very important face of their universe. When was the last time DC put that much effort into WW's brand? And you expect her to sell as much as BM and SM with barely any promotion and push compared to them? It is already a miracle that she became such a pop culture icon without even 50% of the push they have had.
    Last edited by WonderLight789; 04-02-2021 at 08:11 AM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I can't agree. I absolutely think others suffer as much. I also don't think "how important she's supposed to be" works near as much outside a shared universe that grants her some sort of seniority. It's only being around so long and early popularity that give her her rank now (well, until recent movie success). And she never had as broad a popularity as Batman or Superman, though certainly she brought in some merchandising dollars. I like her, but I don't think it's "unfair" that she never got the same treatment as them over the decades when she didn't bring in the same money. Other older heroes certainly ended up in much worse positions. Mind you, I do very much think DC needs to work to deepen its bench and not depend on Batman so much. I do think other characters have been sacrificed in a terrible way to glorify his. But I just don't think the default should be "whatever they get, she gets" in terms of animated series, etc. just because she's an older female character.
    Could you please contradict yourself even more? Specifically Superman had that popularity because he was basically the first recognized comic superhero, and not because that fictional character somehow deserves it more than Wonder Woman or anyone else. And to expect from her to bring in the same money like Superman let alone Batman without even remotely treating her the same way for several decades, is outright delusional, how is that even supposed to happen with your reasoning, magic?
    Yeah after Green Lantern getting an animated show after a terrible and not well received movie, after Harley Quinn getting an animated show after a terrible and not well received movie, and after Aquaman getting an animated show after a good and well received movie just like Wonder Woman had but under a bit easier conditions is it of course totally impudent to expect an animated show about the still archetype of female comic superheroes.

    Your argument would be weak enough already if Wonder Woman would have gotten just half the push Harley Quinn got for several years, but looking at how it truly was, is your argument basically as strong as WB's and others argument why female superhero movies can't work based on the Supergirl movie and Halle Berry's Catwoman.

    While they do need to work on her if they really want to sell that she's equally important (I have no idea when that idea started, to be honest)
    That idea started partly as Marston created a character named Wonder Woman, that proved to be popular under extremely terrible conditions, fully as that character despite a completely different treatment than Batman and Superman got, became an archetype and a part off pop culture well beyond the boundaries of comics.
    but they have occasionally tried to do so in the past. Failed miserably several times.
    Failed miserably several times with tries that deserve a dictionary entry for blatant incompetence, and a few times failed but typically less miserably with half-hearted tries on not just burned but more like napalmed ground.

    But when they've made several attempts and haven't gotten the result they want, lipservice is what you end up with.
    So we end up with something that is blatantly 1 of the reasons why they failed in the first place, going full circle you mean?
    For Superman, too, though even the lipservice is going away these days. But he, as a character, is much more part of American culture due to past fame - people know his home planet, his weakness to Kryptonite, who Lex Luthor and Lois Lane are, etc. Though, I can see that fading in time. I do wonder if, with all the superhero movies of the day, it will lead Superman to "one of many" instead the more standout event of the older movies.
    Oh yeah poor Superman, there is a good time and place for complaining about how Superman gets treated, but you must have confused this with the Batman board and a thread about Bat-God stories to think thhis would be that time and place.
    And tv doesn't do it either, anymore. Everything is so much more segmented now, with so many more options. What people watch, read, etc. You don't have that one thing that everyone (at least of age bracket) either watches/reads or knows about because other people do. Makes it more difficult for a character to be a lasting part of pop culture.
    Wonder Woman is a lasting part of pop culture already, despite that someone could at times think DC and WB tried their best to avoid that, but the issue is that the shared universe as more often than not at best helped on a surface level with Wonder Woman's popularity, but did on a deeper level way too often the opposite.

  5. #35
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    Let's not act like anything can become big without promotion and marketing to push the brand. WW never had the same level of promotion and exposure throughout media that Batman and Superman had. So it is just ridiculous to expect her to bring the same amount of money, when they have never given her the same chances. In fact, WW has proven many times her potential, yet they still didn't do much with her. Her debut comic was a very good seller. Yet sexism got her and after marston died. She was stuck in many mediocre stories where she was more concern about getting married than being a hero. The TV show was a hit. Yet what did they do with that momentum? They had her losing her powers and becoming a spyn in the comics. Her 2009 animated movie is one of the top selling animated movies in DC. Yet they did nothing to try to keep building on that. Her 2017 film was a big hit. Her solo debut film did far better than any SM film in the last 4 decades. Yet you don't see them trying much with her brand. And they still threw her under the bus in jl movie and did nothing with her verse in the comics. In the meantime. Marvel turned a very unknown character for the GP such as Carol Danvers, into the first female lead comic book movie to gross over a billion. Had no problem making her the strongest hero in their cinematic universe, and are pushing her to become a very important face of their universe. When was the last time DC put that much effort into WW's brand? And you expect her to sell as much as BM and SM with barely any promotion and push compared to them? It is already a miracle that she became such a pop culture icon without even 50% of the push they have had.
    Marvel is actually trying to push Carol Danvers under the rug in the MCU and already have two heroes lined up to take her place. (Monica Rambeau and Kamala Khan)

    Oof...

    And being the strongest her got her to use her full power for a 1 minute 30 second space battle (in her own movie) and miss 95% of Endgame only to show up at the end of a 15 minute battle in which she got 30 seconds of screen time to do something, which was:

    -fly through a ship

    -fly a straight line through an army

    -over power Thanos for 2 seconds for suspension reasons until he outsmarted her

    She wasn't even part of the MCU group shot when everyone was charging forward...she was the only MCU character alive who wasn't part of that shot... she was more of a plot device than a character.


    Edit: I wonder if part of the reason WW never got a sequel to the 2009 movie is because they were working on other Wonder Woman tv projects and WB is so weird about stuff overlapping sometimes. It's dumb.
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 04-02-2021 at 09:00 AM.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Marvel is actually trying to push Carol Danvers under the rug in the MCU and already have two heroes lined up to take her place. (Monica Rambeau and Kamala Khan)

    Oof...

    And being the strongest her got her to use her full power for a 1 minute 30 second space battle (in her own movie) and miss 95% of Endgame only to show up at the end of a 15 minute battle in which she got 30 seconds of screen time to do something, which was:

    -fly through a ship

    -fly a straight line through an army

    -over power Thanos for 2 seconds for suspension reasons until he outsmarted her

    She wasn't even part of the MCU group shot when everyone was charging forward...she was the only MCU character alive who wasn't part of that shot... she was more of a plot device than a character.


    Edit: I wonder if part of the reason WW never got a sequel to the 2009 movie is because they were working on other Wonder Woman tv projects and WB is so weird about stuff overlapping sometimes. It's dumb.
    My understanding about the animated movie was that they were planning sequels based on EARLY returns for the movie. The 2009 film ended up great overall numbers, but the early sales were below expectation so they had no plans to make a second WW movie until many years later, the Gadot movie did great, and they had every reason in the world to follow it up with a (sub-par) animated title.

    Are they really trying to ditch Carol over at the MCU? I know Carol is by far the most divisive character, and she didn't fit well into MCU at that point, but we're in a completely different phase now.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Marvel is actually trying to push Carol Danvers under the rug in the MCU and already have two heroes lined up to take her place. (Monica Rambeau and Kamala Khan)
    Monica and Kamala's appearance in the MCU is not a sign they want to push Carol out. Monica's time as Captain Marvel isn't even being adapted and Kamala only replaced Carol as Ms Marvel.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Monica and Kamala's appearance in the MCU is not a sign they want to push Carol out. Monica's time as Captain Marvel isn't even being adapted and Kamala only replaced Carol as Ms Marvel.
    They are both showing up in CM 2 (Monica was already in CM1). Monica has also had comparable screen time with Carol at this point.

    I really wouldn't be surprised of CM 2 ends with Monica becoming CM and Carol flying off into space, which I wouldn't mind because I'm not really all that attached to MCU Carol.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    My understanding about the animated movie was that they were planning sequels based on EARLY returns for the movie. The 2009 film ended up great overall numbers, but the early sales were below expectation so they had no plans to make a second WW movie until many years later, the Gadot movie did great, and they had every reason in the world to follow it up with a (sub-par) animated title.

    Are they really trying to ditch Carol over at the MCU? I know Carol is by far the most divisive character, and she didn't fit well into MCU at that point, but we're in a completely different phase now.
    They are definitely making themselves a back door for the character,. They are already setting up the pieces to put Monica in a leadership roll at SWORD, something which is closer tied to Carol in the comics.

    Her movie was more of a reactionary response to Wonder Woman, if Marvel cared about a female lead superhero film, they would have made a Black Widow movie years ago when fans where asking for it (like they seriously couldn't make a prequel film...her solo movie now is a prequel film, you can have more than one prequel film...the plot of which is also going to be about spoilers:
    setting up the next Black Widow.
    end of spoilers).

    I don't know more about the next phase than anyone else, but just considering how uninterested the studio and audience seems to be with her I just have a hunch her own sequel movie is going to be more of a "heroic send-off" for her.
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 04-02-2021 at 09:58 AM.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Marvel is actually trying to push Carol Danvers under the rug in the MCU and already have two heroes lined up to take her place. (Monica Rambeau and Kamala Khan)

    Oof...

    And being the strongest her got her to use her full power for a 1 minute 30 second space battle (in her own movie) and miss 95% of Endgame only to show up at the end of a 15 minute battle in which she got 30 seconds of screen time to do something, which was:

    -fly through a ship

    -fly a straight line through an army

    -over power Thanos for 2 seconds for suspension reasons until he outsmarted her

    She wasn't even part of the MCU group shot when everyone was charging forward...she was the only MCU character alive who wasn't part of that shot... she was more of a plot device than a character.


    Edit: I wonder if part of the reason WW never got a sequel to the 2009 movie is because they were working on other Wonder Woman tv projects and WB is so weird about stuff overlapping sometimes. It's dumb.
    You have literally 0 proof that they want Carol Danvers out.

    Better be able to fight at full power for 1:30 in space, than a circus act in WW84 looking like street levelers.

    The fact that Thanos needed a power stone to break free from her hold. You will never see WW doing something like that to Darkseid for example. What CM did between her solo movie and her apparence is endgame puts to shame anything WW has done in 4 movies in the DCEU. I rethar be a MVP. Than a glorified super human Xena that gets 2 shoted by SM. If CM was a reaction to the WW film. Then they sure took note in how to take things to a new level. The fact that Marvel had the guts to say a female character was the strongest and actually show it on panel. When will you see DC and WB doing that with WW? Lipservice is all they ever do.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    Could you please contradict yourself even more? Specifically Superman had that popularity because he was basically the first recognized comic superhero, and not because that fictional character somehow deserves it more than Wonder Woman or anyone else. And to expect from her to bring in the same money like Superman let alone Batman without even remotely treating her the same way for several decades, is outright delusional, how is that even supposed to happen with your reasoning, magic?
    Yeah after Green Lantern getting an animated show after a terrible and not well received movie, after Harley Quinn getting an animated show after a terrible and not well received movie, and after Aquaman getting an animated show after a good and well received movie just like Wonder Woman had but under a bit easier conditions is it of course totally impudent to expect an animated show about the still archetype of female comic superheroes.

    Your argument would be weak enough already if Wonder Woman would have gotten just half the push Harley Quinn got for several years, but looking at how it truly was, is your argument basically as strong as WB's and others argument why female superhero movies can't work based on the Supergirl movie and Halle Berry's Catwoman.



    That idea started partly as Marston created a character named Wonder Woman, that proved to be popular under extremely terrible conditions, fully as that character despite a completely different treatment than Batman and Superman got, became an archetype and a part off pop culture well beyond the boundaries of comics.


    Failed miserably several times with tries that deserve a dictionary entry for blatant incompetence, and a few times failed but typically less miserably with half-hearted tries on not just burned but more like napalmed ground.



    So we end up with something that is blatantly 1 of the reasons why they failed in the first place, going full circle you mean?


    Oh yeah poor Superman, there is a good time and place for complaining about how Superman gets treated, but you must have confused this with the Batman board and a thread about Bat-God stories to think thhis would be that time and place.


    Wonder Woman is a lasting part of pop culture already, despite that someone could at times think DC and WB tried their best to avoid that, but the issue is that the shared universe as more often than not at best helped on a surface level with Wonder Woman's popularity, but did on a deeper level way too often the opposite.
    Exactly all of this. Anybody expecting WW to sell as much as SM and BM while not having even 50% of their promotion and push is just reaching. Even harly quins have had more promotion and push than WW, and with far less amount of solo success to back her up.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    The fact that Thanos needed a power stone to break free from her hold. You will never see WW doing something like that to Darkseid for example. What CM did between her solo movie and her apparence is endgame puts to shame anything WW has done in 4 movies in the DCEU. I rethar be a MVP. Than a glorified super human Xena that gets 2 shoted by SM. If CM was a reaction to the WW film. Then they sure took note in how to take things to a new level. The fact that Marvel had the guts to say a female character was the strongest and actually show it on panel. When will you see DC and WB doing that with WW? Lipservice is all they ever do.
    You know, they either 1) never should've made Carol that powerful or 2) introduce her after Endgame if they insisted on her being that powerful. It really makes no sense to keep propping up Thanos as intergalactic Genghis Khan and then in the movie right before Endgame introduce a character tougher than he is.

    The timing of Carol's appearance, coupled with her overall power level, was a series of mistakes.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    You know, they either 1) never should've made Carol that powerful or 2) introduce her after Endgame if they insisted on her being that powerful. It really makes no sense to keep propping up Thanos as intergalactic Genghis Khan and then in the movie right before Endgame introduce a character tougher than he is.

    The timing of Carol's appearance, coupled with her overall power level, was a series of mistakes.
    I know that? Why? Who said she shouldn't be that powerful? Some guys on youtube and social media that scream feminazy conspiracy everytime they see a female character doing powerful stuff? Nobody needs to ask those people permission to write CM, WW or any other super powered female as a powerhouse capable of hanging with the boys. When Hulk, Thor, Superman etc got power upgrades out of their ····· most of those same comic fans don't say a word. But the moment is a woman, the world is coming to an end. We are in 2021. They need to know that sexism is not the tea anymore.

  14. #44
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    I know that? Why? Who said she shouldn't be that powerful? Some guys on youtube and social media that scream feminazy conspiracy everytime they see a female character doing powerful stuff? Nobody needs to ask those people permission to write CM, WW or any other super powered female as a powerhouse capable of hanging with the boys. When Hulk, Thor, Superman etc got power upgrades out of their ····· most of those same comic fans don't say a word. But the moment is a woman, the world is coming to an end. We are in 2021. They need to know that sexism is not the tea anymore.
    I think you are confusing why people don't like MCU Carol Danvers. It has nothing to do with her being a woman.

    They even took her #1 strongest hero spot and gave it to Wanda, because Wanda is a character and not a flying brick. People like characters more than they like flying bricks, that's why everyone loves Tony Stark and Spider-man.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    I think you are confusing why people don't like MCU Carol Danvers. It has nothing to do with her being a woman.

    They even took her #1 strongest hero spot and gave it to Wanda, because Wanda is a character and not a flying brick. People like characters more than they like flying bricks, that's why everyone loves Tony Stark and Spider-man.
    Got news for you. Flying bricks are characters too. And they can be just as appealing as the more human ones. Please don't try to tell me that high power levels make characters less ''appealing'' to the GP. Because we have have countless of popular characters in fiction that are crazy powerful.

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