Joker goes to New York

[Captain Morgan]

I admit that I don't instinctively think of unsupported plot point as feats. Joker undoing the restoration of his sanity by Martian Manhunter is a great feat. Joker just arbitrarily getting a nuke feels like a classic case of PIS unless the writer actually shows us how Joker obtained it.

He probably got it while he was taking apart that global secret society I mentioned above-- it was the same story arc. Or just purchased it off a black market arms dealer. Or more likely, stole it off a black market arms dealer. WMD grade stuff is out there in DC and Marvel. Plenty of failed nation states, unhinged scientists, and so forth. Stopping villains from using them forms a not insignificant percentage of super hero comics.

And to be honest, this also feels like a pretty flimsy excuse in a medium with Karate Kid in it. Comic book characters do stuff that defies logic all the time. We don't throw feats out because they aren't realistic.

It's not like Joker routinely acquires weapons of mass destruction the way Thanos casually acquires cosmic cubes.

He largely doesn't care to. If he nukes the playground with Batman in it then he can't play with Batman anymore. Again, he only decided to do this because he knew Bruce was gone. And it isn't even a particularly egregious feat compared to, say, turning Superman, Wonder Woman, and the rest of the Justice League into his thralls with his own toxins.

Beside, if we are taking the Avengers and their like off the table doesn’t that inherently limit what, exactly, Joker can pull off without attracting their attention? Dude’s not launching a city wide attack without at least some of the resident big guns taking notice.

Speaking of which, when was the last time Joker did anything that wasn’t directly connected to Bruce in some capacity? InJustice? With how deeply connected Bruce has been tied to Joker’s motivation for doing, well... anything really over time, can we even reasonable assume that Joker would bother to do some big performance without a Bat there to participate?

And that's why saying "Joker sets up shop in NYC" with no further context, goals, or motivation is ultimately pointless. As Nschornhorst describes, we don't have any way of knowing what the heck the dude would do when the reason he gets out of bed is no longer around, as his responses when this happens vary wildly across comics.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

If Deadpool can get hands on a nuclear sub, I'm sure the Joker can get his hands on some WMDs.

Issue is that he'll get killed sooner rather than later considering the general lack of "no kill rules" Marvel characters have.

[master of read]

i am not underestimating mr. j. not at all. if this was another city, like LA or san fransico, i'd say he does way better. but in new york, the superhero captial of marvel earth? it's a tough mountain to climb, especially if he gets the attention of the bigger heroes. and the old one said, most marvel heroes don't have a problem killing a guy if he pushes it. and lord help joker if he gets frank's attention. frank will kill him and will be willing to go down with him if needed.

[Guy1]

i am not underestimating mr. j. not at all. if this was another city, like LA or san fransico, i'd say he does way better. but in new york, the superhero captial of marvel earth? it's a tough mountain to climb, especially if he gets the attention of the bigger heroes. and the old one said, most marvel heroes don't have a problem killing a guy if he pushes it. and lord help joker if he gets frank's attention. frank will kill him and will be willing to go down with him if needed.

As stated by the OP, the big guns are off limits for the thread.

[master of read]

As stated by the OP, the big guns are off limits for the thread.

i missed that. my bad.

still, joker will want to avoid a meeting with mr. castle or deadpool. they see him, joker is eating a bullet.

[numberthirty]

Just don't get the whole "But Joker..." angle.

Joker does pretty well in a DCU where very few characters are actually playing for keeps.

In 616 Marvel where the underworld has a legion of tentacles/regular "King Of The Mountain..." situations and Frank Castle keeping tabs on just about everything?

I'm just not seeing where Joker is making any sort of a "Small-Sized..." play that absolutely no one catches on to.

[Huntsman Spider]

And if not Spiderman or his clones, Venom/Eddie Brock is more than capable of tracking down and killing Joker. And god help Joker if Deadpool is hired to off him.

Good point on Eddie Brock as Venom. Forgot about that one, I'll admit.

[The Drunkard Kid]

I'm not sure why people keep bringing up the Punisher as though there's any chance of him ever even coming close to finding the Joker except by complete random accident.

Seriously, it's not like they're isn't an entire community of supervillains dumber or easier to find than the Joker who have been active floor decades in NYC.

[Little_Mac]

Most of these are mutually exclusive. I mean you're citing two different locations as if he'd have to take them both on simultaneously, and generally speaking by the time SHIELD is involved we have graduated past Colleen Wing.

That's all he ever has. It isn't like he obtains the Infinity Gauntlet to pull off any of his schemes.



Sorry, why is he getting into a physical fight with the Helicarrier exactly? Like, what do you think Joker is trying to do here exactly because I cannot follow your thread.

When Joker starts killing people, it may very well be /thousands of people./



But not in strategy. Batman has tech at least as good as Spidey and is the World's Greatest Detective to boot. Spider-Man ain't finding Joker unless Joker wants to be found.


He seems to do just fine when he's being hunting down global secret societies or crime syndicates who would certainly prefer it if he were dead, actually.

I was just making the point that Agent Hill and a Shield Helicarrier was based in NYC (from what I remember), so Joker would probably have to deal with Shield agents. It's the easy round, compared to Hells Kitchen/Spiderman and co in terms of actual fire-power. The only disadvantage is that Shield agents could be helpful in trying to find Joker. It's not Gotham City, when Batman prevents the government agents from spending any time in his city.

Batman is kinda selfish in who he allows to work in his city. Marvel NYC isn't like that. Joker might suddenly find himself fending off several different threats at one time. I don't know how he is going to handle that.

[Captain Morgan]

I'm not sure why people keep bringing up the Punisher as though there's any chance of him ever even coming close to finding the Joker except by complete random accident.

Seriously, it's not like they're isn't an entire community of supervillains dumber or easier to find than the Joker who have been active floor decades in NYC.

But but but Batman doesn't kill and Punisher does and Batman is dumb and Punisher is smart.

[Captain Morgan]

Just don't get the whole "But Joker..." angle.

Joker does pretty well in a DCU where very few characters are actually playing for keeps.

In 616 Marvel where the underworld has a legion of tentacles/regular "King Of The Mountain..." situations and Frank Castle keeping tabs on just about everything?

I'm just not seeing where Joker is making any sort of a "Small-Sized..." play that absolutely no one catches on to.

This isn't a "but the Joker" argument. This is "but the Joker's feats" argument,which is what this forum is based on. I've named several in this thread. No one has mentioned diddly squat for Frank.

[Guy1]

But but but Batman doesn't kill.

[Guy1]

This isn't a "but the Joker" argument. This is "but the Joker's feats" argument,which is what this forum is based on . I've named several in this thread. No one has mentioned diddly squat for Frank.

Morgan's got a point. Lets see some detective investigation feats for Frank here.

[numberthirty]

This isn't a "but the Joker" argument. This is "but the Joker's feats" argument,which is what this forum is based on. I've named several in this thread. No one has mentioned diddly squat for Frank.

Does naming them really change that they exist in a relatively "No Killing..." universe though?

It's about like your "Feats..." being that you are consistently the best hitter on the tee ball team.

How much do they actually mean if you take that kid, and drop him into little league?

[Little_Mac]

Why would Joker *only* get Punchline and money as resources? He has chemicals and numerous weapons at his disposal and if this thread is like the Kingpin one, since the OP made this as a sort of offshoot of it, he should get all his usual resources like Kingpin does in Gotham. Even without Harley, he gets his henchmen, Joker gas, bombs, guns, hideout, Jokermobile, etc.

There is a massive difference in resources in the two scenarios. Joker's normal resources aren't that great. It's like a normal Marvel NYC villain henchman lineup. There is no one in the lineup that any NYC hero is going to spend a minute worrying about. Spiderman would web up his entire henchman lineup in a minute. It's a normal prep fight for him before he faces the main villain. Joker's chemical knowledge/financial resources is the only thing of note. Joker mainly works alone and since Harley left him, Punchline is the only mook with some feats.

Now, in the other scenario, you gave Kingpin people like Bullseye/Thyroid Mary, that can easily beat up most of the Gotham City heroes/villains. Kingpin just has to plan, and strategize. That's in addition to money and his normal gang.

If the Joker gets found out by a hero/villain, his resources are cannon fodder and Joker has to deal with the hero one-on-one. If the Kingpin gets found out, the hero will be lucky to get to meet him. Most of them aren't getting past Bullseye and company. That's a much different level of resources.

Would you rather have better chemical factories or superior hired help (assuming that money is fairly equal)?

Some posters also seem to think that everyone will be tracking Joker from the get-go. They won't even know who he is. Joker is flamboyant, but he waits for his moments. As others (and I) have said, it really depends on Joker's mood/motive. If he's causing trouble for stupid reasons like this is a fun vacation for him, then he's tracked and offed as several posters say, I think. But, if he's playing it smart and simply looking to leave this place with a big grin so he can get back to Batsy, the Marvel NYC may be in trouble. He's perfectly capable of biding his time, learning what he can, and setting things in motion on a city-wide level. Honestly, there are many characters in the DCU that are just as capable and willing to take Joker out if prompted to-- Luthor, Deathstroke, Ra's al Ghul, Vandal Savage, etc. who have resources and can see Joker only as useful as bringing chaos to the heroes, but if he gets in their way... yet, they often underestimate the Joker. I'd imagine many Marvel folks might as well. Punchline or Harley or both, Joker has someone who can distract heroes and take the fall when he decimates the city as he tries to head back to Batman. He could even break criminals out to run amok, as he's easily done so in the past.

Now, that's *if* he feels there's a Batman to get back to. If he's trapped in the MU without Batman, who knows what could happen. He's run the gamut of mass-destruction, mourning, going sane, going catatonic, and all points in between when Batman vanishes/dies in various stories. It's too much of a wild card if there's no one he considers a worthy enough foe in MU to challenge and if he truly believes Batman is lost to him forever.

No one doubts that Joker gets the couple of moves on the board. He's way too experienced not to wait and plan it out properly (See Joker War). The issue is that the response from the NYC hero/villains should be much quicker and effective compared to Gotham City. If the Joker takes out Batman, Gotham City usually takes awhile to organize (Bad case of PIS - aka everything must go wrong until Batman recovers)). If the Joker takes out Spiderman, he still has Daredevil and other heroes to deal with.