Joker goes to New York

[Shellhead]

Ya I don't think Frank is ready for a guy like joker.

It goes both ways. There's a reason why Punisher doesn't have a rogues gallery, and Joker doesn't normally deal with guys like that. Think about all the times Batman has successfully punched the Joker, and then think about how much faster a bullet travels and how much damage it can do.

[Mider2009]

It goes both ways. There's a reason why Punisher doesn't have a rogues gallery, and Joker doesn't normally deal with guys like that. Think about all the times Batman has successfully punched the Joker, and then think about how much faster a bullet travels and how much damage it can do.

He has Jigsaw

But think about the times Joker coulda killed Batman

[Mider2009]

The insane military vet who regularly slaughters hordes of criminals...isn't known for his combat skills? HUh?

...compared to other heroes? No he’s not

[The Drunkard Kid]

It goes both ways. There's a reason why Punisher doesn't have a rogues gallery, and Joker doesn't normally deal with guys like that. Think about all the times Batman has successfully punched the Joker, and then think about how much faster a bullet travels and how much damage it can do.

I'm fairly confident that Joker regularly punks gunmen because he's faster at dodging them they are at aiming (or in at least one instance, faster at disarming a cop and then aiming, and shooting multiple other armed cops with his gun while deliberately avoiding their bulletproof vests than they were at aiming and firing at him) and that Batman is faster at aiming and punching than most gunmen, including Frank, are at doing the same with a gun at melee range.

[Captain Morgan]

Really? Head to head, standard equipment, Frank is coming with pistols, assault rifles, grenades and body armor. Joker generally doesn't have any of those, right? In HtH, yeah, I could kind of see it being close - but Rumbles-rules seems to vastly favor the guy with 50 years of history of gunning fools down at the drop of a hat.

EDIT: Yes, Joker sometimes carries a pistol, but he has nowhere near Frank's accuracy, and again, doesn't wear body armor, which Frank always does. And a pistol at range isn't something you want against automatic weapons.

Sure, but Joker's standard equipment includes things like gas grenades that work through force fields. And while I have no doubt he doesn't have Frank's plethora of accuracy feats, he does have some respectable stuff like John Wicking his way through a police station. And with performances against Batman like this, you can make a case that Joker is faster and therefore harder to get a bead on. They both basically have stuff that can kill the other and its really just a question of who tags who first.

Like I said, I don't actually favor Joker there, but I find it a lot more closer than any sort of prep fight or scenario of matching wits would be.

[Guy1]

Damn Frank and his lack of combat skills!

[Guy1]

[choptop]

It goes both ways. There's a reason why Punisher doesn't have a rogues gallery, and Joker doesn't normally deal with guys like that. Think about all the times Batman has successfully punched the Joker, and then think about how much faster a bullet travels and how much damage it can do.

Joker has dealt with people with gun's before really unless Frank has one way prep most Batman Villains are going to murder him

[big_adventure]

Joker has dealt with people with gun's before really unless Frank has one way prep most Batman Villains are going to murder him

Competent people with guns mostly don't want to shoot Joker. The heroes don't kill. Police don't either as a general rule. Even villains won't, for the sake of the story, giving Joker the chance to talk his way out if they have the cold drop on him.

Frank? Oh, hell no. Frank will open fire instantly, with the automatic weapons that are absolutely standard equipment. Frank is a guy who has fought competitively against Cap, DD, and a horde of others. Yes, him doing so against Matt, despite it being a very regular thing, is absolutely SMvFL, based on speed alone even before we get to skill and agility, but his presentation is as a pretty damn elite fighter, with decades of feats. I'd place him absolutely up around the same tier as Joker - good enough to fight well against CBPH types before losing. Captain Morgan mentioned above Joker going all Wick through a police station - Frank has done that for generations to masses of armed criminals, and to police more than a few times.

[Shellhead]

Joker has dealt with people with gun's before really unless Frank has one way prep most Batman Villains are going to murder him

The overwhelming majority of Batman villains routinely get punched out by Batman, which means that the overwhelming majority of Batman villains aren't fast enough or tough enough to cope with being shot. Think about it. Think about it some more.

[Shellhead]

...compared to other heroes? No he’s not

Punisher's combat skills compare favorably with most heroes, if you strictly compare skills. Of course, once you factor in the superhuman stats of many heroes, they can surpass Punisher in a fight, sometimes easily.

As for the Joker, remember that officially Batman does not have any superpowers. Judging by their many, many fights over the years, Joker also does not have any superpowers. In particular, the Joker is not faster than a speeding bullet.

[The MunchKING]

Like Batman though he doesn't have to move faster than the bullet, just faster than the guy aiming it can get a bead.

[Hiromi]

Which is all well and good but Punisher's also capable of fielding fully auto weapons, long range sniping, or even explosive weapons in which case aim dodging doesn't really cut it

[Shellhead]

It seems that we have discovered two wildly divergent viewpoints of the Punisher. One group sees the Punisher as a wildly overrated ammosexual who is practically just a mook. The other group sees him as a highly skilled, relentless killing machine. It is probably highly dependent on familiarity with the character, as it pretty clear which version is actually depicted in the comics.

[Nik Hasta]

It seems that we have discovered two wildly divergent viewpoints of the Punisher. One group sees the Punisher as a wildly overrated ammosexual who is practically just a mook. The other group sees him as a highly skilled, relentless killing machine. It is probably highly dependent on familiarity with the character, as it pretty clear which version is actually depicted in the comics.

I mean, I feel like both are kind of true.

Punisher is highly threatening in the street level but the second he tries to play even a little above that level he gets cooked without PIS.

Joker, conversely, has an astounding track record of fucking around in the big leagues without getting killed.

I think it's this key difference that's the source of contention. Joker is just a guy but he's a guy with an exceptional track record which makes him a little tricky to debate in some places. Yes, Punisher should be able to gun him down and so on but there's an awful lot to suggest that he won't get the chance.