Joker goes to New York

[Mider2009]

Thing is, you were saying that Joker has some history of doing astronomically well against higher-tier folks than he should do. Frank absolutely does too. Norman Osborn, during Dark Reign and all that was dead if Sentry hadn't happened by and decided to act. There's a whole storyline of Punisher killing literally everyone.

Joker has done respectably in punch ups against Batman? Frank has done respectably in punch-ups against Daredevil - who is like an order of magnitude more dangerous than Bruce in a fight. If you call one PIS or SMvFL, you kind of have to do the same for the other.

Don't get me wrong: Joker is a dangerous enemy. But in a Rumble (what I was talking about before), Frank is significantly more dangerous.

Punisher isn’t a match for Daredevil

[Mider2009]

How has he done this for 50 years, against all levels of criminals? He does it because screw you that's how. He's always operated that way, and tracked down people that Matt and Peter can't find. Obviously, especially in the case of Matt, that makes no sense. But then, a dude dressed as a clown assembling a clown-styled army in a city that a certain billionaire "best detective in the history of ever" knows every inch of wouldn't be hard to find for Dora the Explorer, let alone Batman, yet Batman manages to not find him, hell, not even hear about him building up his forces despite him leaving a trail of bodies AND acquiring a bunch of dangerous, often illegal materials, until the story dictates. It's story-telling. Plain and simple.

Joker with prep and plot armor is out of Frank's paygrade. But Frank isn't someone the Joker wants coming after him, especially as Frank would absolutely sacrifice himself to get that shot if he had to, and he'd make that shot count.

But what resources would Frank have that Batman doesn’t....Batman pretty much can search every criminal database, and in Gotham the whole city is full 9f his safe houses yet even then Joker evades him

[Mider2009]

Be that as it may, Frank is not finding Joker if he doesn't want to be found. He has more feats of doing this than Frank has of tracking them. He's pretty good at finding people, of course, but not at Joker's level.

In pure hand to hand, Frank has the clear advantage.

Agree, remember Death of the family, when he attacked Alfred, Batman couldn’t find him, the Van and stuff he came in were untraceable

[Shellhead]

But what resources would Frank have that Batman doesn’t....Batman pretty much can search every criminal database, and in Gotham the whole city is full 9f his safe houses yet even then Joker evades him

It's about the same level of PIS that leaves various super-geniuses unable to guess that tall, athletic, rich Bruce Wayne might be the Batman.

[Beadle]

It's about the same level of PIS that leaves various super-geniuses unable to guess that tall, athletic, rich Bruce Wayne might be the Batman.

Or even more so the Superman + Glasses = Clark Kent thing.

[Captain Morgan]

Nik and Drunkard basically hit most of it already. There are a couple other things contributing here:

1) Joker is a consistently inconsistent character. In his own words, he changes personalities three times before lunch. His competency does have some highs and lows, but his concept actually accounts for this. Kind of like how fighting Sentry is a bad measuring stick for other characters because his powers tend to be whatever he thinks they are that day. Rumbles assumes both are having a "good day."

2) Straight up power creep. A lot of us still think of DC in terms of the Morrison era JLA post crisis period when we read the most comics. But the big names in DC have gotten powered up quite a bit in the last couple reboots. Superman went from a guy who could help shove around a celestial body on a good day to a guy who effortlessly benches the weight of the Earth. Orion went from a guy who gets knocked out by a continent sized creature to someone who tanks attacks that level the solar system around him. Hal Jordan is creating stars and casually devolving people. And Batman has drifted further and further towards the Iron Man concept with various power armors. And as one of the biggest names in DC, Joker is no exception. He's hanging with the big dogs a lot more consistently than he did in the early aughts.



Also, keep in mind that it isn't just that it takes Batman to find Joker and Frank is no Batman for finding people. It is that Batman often can't find Joker until he wants to be found.

So, Joker gets the advantage because Punisher is usually written better and Joker is usually written horribly?

If it makes you feel better, sure.

[Captain Morgan]

It's about the same level of PIS that leaves various super-geniuses unable to guess that tall, athletic, rich Bruce Wayne might be the Batman.

Or the same "PIS" that lets Punisher operate despite there being plenty of heroes who disapprove of his shenanigans and could easily scoop him up, or plenty of super villains who could easily kill him if the spirit moved them to.

You are conflating realism with internal consistency . We truck in the latter here, not the former. Is realistic that Joker does what he does? No. But neither is anything with super powers, at the end of the day. Or how human comic book peak humans are. Or how fast Shang Chi, Cassandra Cain, and Karate Kid are by being good at karate. This forum and the stories it is based around fall apart if you try and look at them through that lens. Especially when you start to examine strategic geniuses written by writers who are not those things.

What matters is whether the characters are internally consistent, which is what things like PIS and SMvsFL are actually measures of. Joker doesn't make Batman dumber within the context of the story in the way that Death Stroke makes the Flash dumber by running into his sword. Joker is just smart enough to pull these things off and have the rest of the world playing catch up.

You don't have to like it as a story telling convention, but these are the standards of the board.

[Shellhead]

Or the same "PIS" that lets Punisher operate despite there being plenty of heroes who disapprove of his shenanigans and could easily scoop him up, or plenty of super villains who could easily kill him if the spirit moved them to.

You are conflating realism with internal consistency . We truck in the latter here, not the former. Is realistic that Joker does what he does? No. But neither is anything with super powers, at the end of the day. Or how human comic book peak humans are. Or how fast Shang Chi, Cassandra Cain, and Karate Kid are by being good at karate. This forum and the stories it is based around fall apart if you try and look at them through that lens. Especially when you start to examine strategic geniuses written by writers who are not those things.

What matters is whether the characters are internally consistent, which is what things like PIS and SMvsFL are actually measures of. Joker doesn't make Batman dumber within the context of the story in the way that Death Stroke makes the Flash dumber by running into his sword. Joker is just smart enough to pull these things off and have the rest of the world playing catch up.

You don't have to like it as a story telling convention, but these are the standards of the board.

Yeah, I get it. And what I see in this discussion is an Astronauts vs Cavemen level of intensity where many of us want to deny one side or the other that internal consistency.

[numberthirty]

Be that as it may, Frank is not finding Joker if he doesn't want to be found. He has more feats of doing this than Frank has of tracking them. He's pretty good at finding people, of course, but not at Joker's level.

In pure hand to hand, Frank has the clear advantage.

The main problem with this is pretty obvious...

Every single one of those feats that folks want to hold up?

They are taking place in a completely different universe and city.

Daredevil can hear the littlest thing from, what? Blocks away at a minimum? That is not even accounting for something as wild as spidey-sense.

Trying to create something that is "Apples..."/"Apples..." is that you have to seriously turn a blind eye to a lot of what exists in the "616" Marvel Universe to even attempt to do so.

Never mind that you have to spot the Joker actually being aware of these things to even start to entertain that he can convincingly stay below their radar.

[numberthirty]

...

Also, keep in mind that it isn't just that it takes Batman to find Joker and Frank is no Batman for finding people. It is that Batman often can't find Joker until he wants to be found.

In a city/universe that Joker has been operating in for the entirety of his career.

Which NYC is not.

[numberthirty]

But what resources would Frank have that Batman doesn’t....Batman pretty much can search every criminal database, and in Gotham the whole city is full 9f his safe houses yet even then Joker evades him

Put simply...

Almost a lifetime on knowing NYC's underworld and hunting them down.

Anyone that isn't actually dead?

It is strictly because Frank is letting them slide.

To create an even remotely serious version of things where Frank is a non-issue?

You are going to have to be able to give me a concrete "On The Page..." example of that Frank doesn't still have a stash of whatever he got his hands on when he hit that Roxxon base that was a special project of Zemo's.

With that(just setting aside that this guy who hit a hidden Toxxon base that was Zemo's pet project...), the guy actually punched The Mandarin's ticket.

Past that, Frank is still the same guy who got his hands on who-know-what back when he took a run a the Osborn who was leading H.A.M.M.E.R.

[Wildling]

Thing is, you were saying that Joker has some history of doing astronomically well against higher-tier folks than he should do. Frank absolutely does too. Norman Osborn, during Dark Reign and all that was dead if Sentry hadn't happened by and decided to act. There's a whole storyline of Punisher killing literally everyone.

Actually the Osborn assassination attempt is one time where a comic goes to show Punisher had actual luck on his side to go as far as he did. He went after Osborn with a Skrull sniper rifle early in the Dark Reign comics when I assumed it would have been easy enough for Frank to pocket a Skrull weapon for himself in the chaos following the end of Secret Invasion. And made sure to prepare so he would only push the trigger and make a clean exit. Then that same luck turned against him when Sentry showed up to his surprise (back then the fact he was Osborn's bodyguard and not-so-secret weapon wouldn't have been as widely known) and by the end of the comic Punisher barely escaped with his life and only because some unknown benefactor helped him and Sentry wasn't trying.

[Slade1]

Yeah, I get it. And what I see in this discussion is an Astronauts vs Cavemen level of intensity where many of us want to deny one side or the other that internal consistency.

And Superman can hear a pin drop from a city away. What's your point? And this isn't Joker just randomly killing people as soon as he gets there. Nobody even knows he exists. Also why does it matter if it's in a completely different universe and city? Feats are feats, you don't just ignore them because the setting has changed.

[Slade1]

Put simply...

Almost a lifetime on knowing NYC's underworld and hunting them down.

Anyone that isn't actually dead?

It is strictly because Frank is letting them slide.

To create an even remotely serious version of things where Frank is a non-issue?

You are going to have to be able to give me a concrete "On The Page..." example of that Frank doesn't still have a stash of whatever he got his hands on when he hit that Roxxon base that was a special project of Zemo's.

With that(just setting aside that this guy who hit a hidden Toxxon base that was Zemo's pet project...), the guy actually punched The Mandarin's ticket.

Past that, Frank is still the same guy who got his hands on who-know-what back when he took a run a the Osborn who was leading H.A.M.M.E.R.

Guess what? Batman does all of that but better and still has a tough time finding Joker. And Batman knows of Joker and his behaviour/patterns while Frank doesn't.

[Guy1]

And Superman can hear a pin drop from a city away. What's your point? And this isn't Joker just randomly killing people as soon as he gets there. Nobody even knows he exists. Also why does it matter if it's in a completely different universe and city? Feats are feats, you don't just ignore them because the setting has changed.

I have to agree with Slade here. There's no reason for Joker not to spend time getting the lay of the land while laying low in this new universe.