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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    I mean, I feel like both are kind of true.

    Punisher is highly threatening in the street level but the second he tries to play even a little above that level he gets cooked without PIS.

    Joker, conversely, has an astounding track record of fucking around in the big leagues without getting killed.

    I think it's this key difference that's the source of contention. Joker is just a guy but he's a guy with an exceptional track record which makes him a little tricky to debate in some places. Yes, Punisher should be able to gun him down and so on but there's an awful lot to suggest that he won't get the chance.
    Doesn't the PIS thing apply to Joker as well a lot of the times he steps outside of Gotham to mess with any of DC godlike super-people?

    I mean, he too is a very dangerous fellow. But ultimately his physical abilities are supposed to be just that of a normal dude, and he some times pulls off feats that just seems like the universe put itself on Easy mode so that he can feel like a real big bad when he's not playing with people dressed up as bats and birds.

  2. #122
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    Doesn't the PIS thing apply to Joker as well a lot of the times he steps outside of Gotham to mess with any of DC godlike super-people?

    I mean, he too is a very dangerous fellow. But ultimately his physical abilities are supposed to be just that of a normal dude, and he some times pulls off feats that just seems like the universe put itself on Easy mode so that he can feel like a real big bad when he's not playing with people dressed up as bats and birds.
    I think the judgement call you'd have to make at what point possible PIS becomes a consistent facet of the character.

    I'm not going to pretend I'm some kind of Joker aficionado by any stretch of the imagination but I know, even from my very distant relationship with mainstream comics, he's been in the room in most versions of the Legion of Doom and a player in big cosmic power grab stuff and is consistently billed as one of the top DC supervillains by dint of planning, chaos, madness and audacity. Therein lies the debate.

    In terms of stuff he's done and stunts he's pulled, he is astronomically ahead of the Punisher outside of elseworlds stuff. How much of that is PIS is open to debate but Frank flatly does not have the feats to show he can play in Joker's league conceptually.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    I think the judgement call you'd have to make at what point possible PIS becomes a consistent facet of the character.

    I'm not going to pretend I'm some kind of Joker aficionado by any stretch of the imagination but I know, even from my very distant relationship with mainstream comics, he's been in the room in most versions of the Legion of Doom and a player in big cosmic power grab stuff and is consistently billed as one of the top DC supervillains by dint of planning, chaos, madness and audacity. Therein lies the debate.

    In terms of stuff he's done and stunts he's pulled, he is astronomically ahead of the Punisher outside of elseworlds stuff. How much of that is PIS is open to debate but Frank flatly does not have the feats to show he can play in Joker's league conceptually.
    That is fair.

    Punisher feels most at home in gritty urban stories fighting normal horrible humans, with the occascional interactions with superhumans since it is Marvel and Punisher is a very popular character, though much more niched in terms of what kind of stories he's involved in compared to other characters.

    Joker on the other hand is a silly and scary supervillain clown whose whole fictional identity is that his chaotic mind is so bizzare that he throws everyone he interacts with for a loop and he uses that to effectively do whatever the hell he wants, no matter how ridiculous it seems depending on his opponent.

    Short version, Joker has more experience getting away with stunts he shouldn't be able to get away with than Punisher, at often at larger scales at that.

  4. #124
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Short version, Joker has more experience getting away with stunts he shouldn't be able to get away with than Punisher, at often at larger scales at that.
    So, Joker gets the advantage because Punisher is usually written better and Joker is usually written horribly?

  5. #125
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    I think the judgement call you'd have to make at what point possible PIS becomes a consistent facet of the character.

    I'm not going to pretend I'm some kind of Joker aficionado by any stretch of the imagination but I know, even from my very distant relationship with mainstream comics, he's been in the room in most versions of the Legion of Doom and a player in big cosmic power grab stuff and is consistently billed as one of the top DC supervillains by dint of planning, chaos, madness and audacity. Therein lies the debate.

    In terms of stuff he's done and stunts he's pulled, he is astronomically ahead of the Punisher outside of elseworlds stuff. How much of that is PIS is open to debate but Frank flatly does not have the feats to show he can play in Joker's league conceptually.
    Thing is, you were saying that Joker has some history of doing astronomically well against higher-tier folks than he should do. Frank absolutely does too. Norman Osborn, during Dark Reign and all that was dead if Sentry hadn't happened by and decided to act. There's a whole storyline of Punisher killing literally everyone.

    Joker has done respectably in punch ups against Batman? Frank has done respectably in punch-ups against Daredevil - who is like an order of magnitude more dangerous than Bruce in a fight. If you call one PIS or SMvFL, you kind of have to do the same for the other.

    Don't get me wrong: Joker is a dangerous enemy. But in a Rumble (what I was talking about before), Frank is significantly more dangerous.
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  6. #126
    Extraordinary Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    So, Joker gets the advantage because Punisher is usually written better and Joker is usually written horribly?
    I think that is more that Punisher is pretty much all about physically attacking people and the Joker is all about using massive amounts of Batman-level prep to arrange for Horrible things on a massive scale. Like, physically they are probably comparable to one another, but I've yet to see an actual argument as to how Punisher is even going to ever *see* a villain that Batman has to pull out all of his considerable billionaire tech-genius ninja detective resources in order to find, much less actually land a shot on a guy who is known for, among other things, brainwashing/hiring people to act as his body doubles, setting up fake safehouse loaded with booby traps, and hiring CBPH/metahumans to act as bodyguards and/or assassins?

    As a general example of something completely in character for him to do, in the Arkham City video game spoilers:
    for a good chunk of the game, "Joker" had been replaced by Clayface, which would be a very unpleasant surprise for Frank to stumble onto if Joker does the same using a comparable MU shape shifter.
    end of spoilers And Arkham Origins is all about Joker's first appearance, where the first thing he ever did in that version of Gotham was spoilers:
    to secretly usurp and impersonate another super-villain altogether and then sic a horde of top tier CBPH super-villain assassins on Batman for the giggles.
    end of spoilers

    I'm sure that I could probably take out the Queen of England in hand to hand combat, but getting to the point where that's even an option is not something that is even remotely feasible.
    Last edited by The Drunkard Kid; 04-07-2021 at 10:08 AM.

  7. #127
    Astonishing Member Shellhead's Avatar
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    In the OP's scenario, Joker has just moved to New York. He doesn't know his way around, while Punisher has been patrolling the city for years. So it seems like a stretch for Joker to assemble some Batman level of prep before Punisher decides to investigate this evil clown who is suddenly agitating the local underworld. And Punisher tends to do some prep as well. He often likes to scout things out and watch potential targets through a sniper scope before taking action.

  8. #128
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    There's a whole storyline of Punisher killing literally everyone.
    That's an elseworlds as I recall so hardly relevant here.

    Don't get me wrong: Joker is a dangerous enemy. But in a Rumble (what I was talking about before), Frank is significantly more dangerous.
    I was talking about the scenario at hands rather than pound for pound fighting and stuff.

  9. #129
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    I'm sure that I could probably take out the Queen of England in hand to hand combat, but getting to the point where that's even an option is not something that is even remotely feasible.
    Don’t be so sure. Badass.

  10. #130
    Extraordinary Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shellhead View Post
    In the OP's scenario, Joker has just moved to New York. He doesn't know his way around, while Punisher has been patrolling the city for years. So it seems like a stretch for Joker to assemble some Batman level of prep before Punisher decides to investigate this evil clown who is suddenly agitating the local underworld. And Punisher tends to do some prep as well. He often likes to scout things out and watch potential targets through a sniper scope before taking action.
    Again, Joker doesn't make waves until he's ready to act. He's not a spree killer class of villain, he's a mastermind.

    How would Punisher even learn if some random guy dressed as a clown (who is fully capable of discussing himself as a non-clown in the comics) appearing somewhere in New York City (which has a population larger than several smaller states combined) and surreptitiously building resources until he's ready to do all like poison the water supply or take every orphanage in the city hostage with remote controlled bombs?
    Last edited by The Drunkard Kid; 04-07-2021 at 10:09 AM.

  11. #131
    Extraordinary Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beadle View Post
    Don’t be so sure. Badass.
    That's why I added the qualifier of "probably."

  12. #132
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    That's why I added the qualifier of "probably."
    Fair.

    *limitdance*

  13. #133
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    Again, Joker doesn't make waves until he's ready to act. He's not a spree killer class of villain, he's a mastermind.

    How would Punisher even learn if some random guy dressed as a clown (who is fully capable of discussing himself as a non-clown in the comics) appearing somewhere in New York City (which has a population larger than several smaller states combined) and surreptitiously building resources until he's ready to do all like poison the water supply or take every orphanage in the city hostage with remote controlled bombs?
    How has he done this for 50 years, against all levels of criminals? He does it because screw you that's how. He's always operated that way, and tracked down people that Matt and Peter can't find. Obviously, especially in the case of Matt, that makes no sense. But then, a dude dressed as a clown assembling a clown-styled army in a city that a certain billionaire "best detective in the history of ever" knows every inch of wouldn't be hard to find for Dora the Explorer, let alone Batman, yet Batman manages to not find him, hell, not even hear about him building up his forces despite him leaving a trail of bodies AND acquiring a bunch of dangerous, often illegal materials, until the story dictates. It's story-telling. Plain and simple.

    Joker with prep and plot armor is out of Frank's paygrade. But Frank isn't someone the Joker wants coming after him, especially as Frank would absolutely sacrifice himself to get that shot if he had to, and he'd make that shot count.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
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  14. #134
    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    How has he done this for 50 years, against all levels of criminals? He does it because screw you that's how. He's always operated that way, and tracked down people that Matt and Peter can't find. Obviously, especially in the case of Matt, that makes no sense. But then, a dude dressed as a clown assembling a clown-styled army in a city that a certain billionaire "best detective in the history of ever" knows every inch of wouldn't be hard to find for Dora the Explorer, let alone Batman, yet Batman manages to not find him, hell, not even hear about him building up his forces despite him leaving a trail of bodies AND acquiring a bunch of dangerous, often illegal materials, until the story dictates. It's story-telling. Plain and simple.

    Joker with prep and plot armor is out of Frank's paygrade. But Frank isn't someone the Joker wants coming after him, especially as Frank would absolutely sacrifice himself to get that shot if he had to, and he'd make that shot count.
    Be that as it may, Frank is not finding Joker if he doesn't want to be found. He has more feats of doing this than Frank has of tracking them. He's pretty good at finding people, of course, but not at Joker's level.

    In pure hand to hand, Frank has the clear advantage.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    Doesn't the PIS thing apply to Joker as well a lot of the times he steps outside of Gotham to mess with any of DC godlike super-people?

    I mean, he too is a very dangerous fellow. But ultimately his physical abilities are supposed to be just that of a normal dude, and he some times pulls off feats that just seems like the universe put itself on Easy mode so that he can feel like a real big bad when he's not playing with people dressed up as bats and birds.
    You’d have to apply the same to Batman and yet Batman is part of the JLA and has fought them off multiple times, the same goes with the Joker, when he’s serious he prepares for big players
    Last edited by Mider2009; 04-09-2021 at 03:29 AM.

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