DC’s Lack of Female Led Franchises!?

[Factor]

I don't really think that the connection to Batman is really a problem.

The Spin Off Books are usually pretty independent from the main book. They just need to put effort in creating villains and support cast and keep using them when the writers change (or maybe keep the same writer long term on the same book).

I agree when it comes to BoP, being in Gotham never hurt the book that much even if I'd personally prefer if they were based elsewhere so characters like BC don't become extensions of the Batfamily.
As for the Outsiders, I'd have to disagree. The last ongoing focused more on the Batfamily than on characters like Katana. And the main villain was Al Ghul in a plotline that never seemed to end. The team was never allowed to stand on its own and carve their own role in the DCU. It was Gotham Knights outside of Gotham. The Outsiders name and concept can be a lot more than an ancillary book for the Batfamily.

[Vakanai]

Why do you say that? What's wrong with someone picking up a book because they like Vixen's, or Swamp Thing's, or Zatanna's powers, but don't pick up Batman because he lacks powers?

Personally, I love characters with versatile powers more than I love characters who lack powers, or just kind of have one gimmick to their character.

Sometimes for some people, it could be the powersets that draw them to characters. If they find that the characters have good writing, great characterization, a great supporting cast, etc., I consider those bonuses.

Eh, most people consider the good writing, great characterization, a great supporting cast, etc. to be the draw and point, not bonuses. But to each their own.

[I'm a Fish]

Why do you say that? What's wrong with someone picking up a book because they like Vixen's, or Swamp Thing's, or Zatanna's powers, but don't pick up Batman because he lacks powers?

Personally, I love characters with versatile powers more than I love characters who lack powers, or just kind of have one gimmick to their character.

Sometimes for some people, it could be the powersets that draw them to characters. If they find that the characters have good writing, great characterization, a great supporting cast, etc., I consider those bonuses.

The characters powers and costumes is usually what attracts me, but their personality is the reason I end up staying.

[Aahz]

I agree when it comes to BoP, being in Gotham never hurt the book that much even if I'd personally prefer if they were based elsewhere so characters like BC don't become extensions of the Batfamily.
As for the Outsiders, I'd have to disagree. The last ongoing focused more on the Batfamily than on characters like Katana. And the main villain was Al Ghul in a plotline that never seemed to end. The team was never allowed to stand on its own and carve their own role in the DCU. It was Gotham Knights outside of Gotham. The Outsiders name and concept can be a lot more than an ancillary book for the Batfamily.

But if you look at previous Outsider Runs, most were not more Batfamily centric than typical Justice League or Titans Runs.

[CosmiComic]

If you're reading comics based on powers, you're doing it wrong.

But aren't powers part of the reason they're superheroes? Do people want to see the same power set all the time?

Eh, most people consider the good writing, great characterization, a great supporting cast, etc. to be the draw and point, not bonuses. But to each their own.

Powers can be part of that too. On the other hand, not every great hero has a supporting cast

[CosmiComic]

The vampire and werewolf craze seemed aimed and appealed to the "lonely" house wife crowd as it was YA girls, and Monster Girls definitely appeals to the older "otaku" crowd as well. I wouldn't limit or dismiss the YA category to Twilight or certain manga types. I mean, One Punch Man and My Hero Academia are from manga, appeal to the YA crowd, and they're both as superhero as you can get.

Edit: More on topic, the magical girl genre is often basically a superhero genre for girls, so yeah, DC could see how that genre does it.

I think it's partially because female desires are often mocked and ridiculed in pop culture while male ones are celebrated, at least until recently

[scary harpy]

I think the problem is two-fold, with both the fans and DC. Obviously, readers who aren't willing to invest in something new and different, or can't/won't see series beyond their current pull lists, are a major factor here.

But DC's big problem is that it adheres so much to the past that it clutters the way for any new characters, unassociated with any other franchises, to really have a chance to shine. DC ultimately has six major franchises: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, and Justice League. All of those can be tied back to the earliest years of the company, whether the person with the ring or the speed is the same as the 40s or not (same with the League being the JSA redone). Most of the other potential franchises tie into those six: Supergirl, Batgirl, Catwoman, Harley Quinn are obvious, but even Teen Titans is basically JLA for sidekicks. The Legion is a "Superboy and Friends" book, and every time it risks evolving beyond that, a Superboy finds his way back in. So when you have that, and you consider that longstanding characters/teams who've been around since before most of us were born are at best sporadic with regular series starring them (Green Arrow, Aquaman, the Atom, Hawkman, Doom Patrol, the JSA, even Firestorm, who looked like he was going to buck the trend in the early to mid 80s), is it any wonder that it's hard for a new character to make a mark, especially when DC is pretty comfortable propping itself up on the "Big 6" franchises? Honestly, the closest thing to a standalone franchise we've seen in the last 40 years that's likely going to stick is Suicide Squad, and even that is fed by (some) characters belonging to other franchises.

It's sad. I look at a couple books being published by Image and Vault and there's no reason those couldn't be a Nightshade series. Between Game of Thrones and the YA push, an Amethyst series embracing that concept seems like a no-brainer (and the original book was closer in execution to that than the most recent Wonder Comic version). I love Vixen as a character, have read all the minis they've given her over the years. If her ongoing had come out in the 70s, if it hadn't been swallowed in the DC Implosion, would Vixen have better footing and potentially be a franchise unto herself? Maybe. But I think, because DC's main focus is still fueled by the characters/concepts of the its earliest days, she'd more likely be in a similar boat to a character like Shazam: character with a good fanbase who gets trotted out every once in a while to test the waters, see if there's any takers, but between readers who won't deviate from the "norm" and a company that isn't willing to really push the character to make her work because those resources can be devoted to a book where Batman, Superman, AND Wonder Woman star, it's never going to get that far. And yes, a good portion of it can be about how the book's done, but that can also be a bit of a crutch after a while.

So here we remain, waiting for Punchline to get her own ongoing series in two years' time.

This is insightful.

Not too long ago, there was a thread on the Batman board complaining that all of Bat's best villainesses were being reformed. Now, we have a thread about DC's lack of female led franchises.

Anyone else see the connection?

DC has not done the necessary work with it's female characters.

Now, DC immediately wants powerful, strong women...

[OopsIdiditagain]

I think it's partially because female desires are often mocked and ridiculed in pop culture while male ones are celebrated, at least until recently

And yet it's such an underrated market. In the 2010s the YA genre was carried by power fantasies for teenage girls. Tapastic, Webtoon, and other webcomic platforms because they had stories that appealed to a female audience alongside a male one. K-dramas too for the same reason.

[Kaijudo]

Why do you say that? What's wrong with someone picking up a book because they like Vixen's, or Swamp Thing's, or Zatanna's powers, but don't pick up Batman because he lacks powers?

Personally, I love characters with versatile powers more than I love characters who lack powers, or just kind of have one gimmick to their character.

Sometimes for some people, it could be the powersets that draw them to characters. If they find that the characters have good writing, great characterization, a great supporting cast, etc., I consider those bonuses.

I was a bit tired and snarky when I wrote that last night...apologies to Mik.

I get that powers are a good hook (or a situation, in a book like Warlord or something), but like you said it's the other factors that really sells a book, at least for me. I'm one of the many who are tired of so many Batbooks, but I'd rather read a new Batbook written by someone I really enjoy than a book starring a character I love who never gets a chance to shine written by someone I can't stand. There's always a chance I'll be proven wrong, but my luck with these things tends to dictate otherwise.

[Triniking1234]

I think Raven had a mini/spin-off for each rendition of the character.

They can try a Master of Kung-Fu book with Lady Shiva.

[John Venus]

Superhero comics are like Hollywood, it took a long, long time before female leads started to become a regular thing, for existing successful female lead narratives to not be seen as 'flukes', to realize that there is not one single 'mold' for writing female characters and that women have varied tastes and interests and different characters cater to different needs. 2015 was notable for the superhero genre because Agent Carter, Jessica Jones and Supergirl came out, three different shows with three very different leads and in 2020/2021 we have gotten Wonder Woman 1984, WandaVision and soon we are going to get Black Widow, She Hulk, Supergirl and Ms Marvel.

When the 2009 Wonder Woman movie didn't sell fast enough, the execs turned down doing all female led features including a planned Batgirl movie. Nevermind that WW and Batgirl couldn't be anymore different and the success/failure of one shouldn't reflect on the other, anymore than the success of an Aquaman movie shouldn't predicate the success of a Green Arrow movie. Same applies to the comics, if a female led solo series isn't successful it was deemed that the case would be the same for all female lead titles so if you are a creative working on a female lead title, it is going to feel like the future of all other female led titles are going to predicate on your success and if you fail, who knows when the publisher would try again. How long ago did Black Canary have an ongoing? Or Zatanna? There is no reason for them not to have tried again with Vixen because her first solo was cancelled because of the DC Implosion and after that, we got what? A few mini series.

It is changing. Marvel has been pushing Black Widow and Captain Marvel long enough that it would be weird if they weren't appearing regularly in a title as well as making guest appearances. DC has a lot of catching up to do but hopefully the post-Didio/Harras/Berganza era is fruitful.

[CosmiComic]

I was a bit tired and snarky when I wrote that last night...apologies to Mik.

I get that powers are a good hook (or a situation, in a book like Warlord or something), but like you said it's the other factors that really sells a book, at least for me. I'm one of the many who are tired of so many Batbooks, but I'd rather read a new Batbook written by someone I really enjoy than a book starring a character I love who never gets a chance to shine written by someone I can't stand. There's always a chance I'll be proven wrong, but my luck with these things tends to dictate otherwise.

No problem. I wasn't bothered by it.

I don't think powers are the only thing about characters ro like. And I like characters with similar power sets and costumes, like Superman and Supergirl.

I just feel sometimes when a new character is created, especially one in a underserved demographic like women, the character should get at least one interesting power like shapeshifting, invisibility, intangibility or telepathy, rather than jusr strength/speed/flight like so many have.

But that may not be why some of these characters don't sell or aren't give the chance to sell

[John Venus]

Maybe, but I think Barbara is better off as a character as Batgirl than she is as BOP's Oracle. BOP just needs to find a way to work without needing Bab's in a wheelchair.

They've been trying for a decade now and nothing has stuck really. Babs as Oracle was the heart and soul of the team. To add to what Confuzled said, BOP isn't just a group of female characters working together, it's their history and relationships. I remember during the mid-late aughts, when Marvel was trying to launch their own majority female team and Gail Simone mentioned that the reason why those efforts weren't working but BOP did was because what attracted the audience was the relationship between the characters, not just all these characters standing in the same place.

[Vakanai]

I think it's partially because female desires are often mocked and ridiculed in pop culture while male ones are celebrated, at least until recently

That is shamefully true. I know I was guilty of that before (and I need to stay on my toes so I'm not guilty of it again). Although it is to be noted YA isn't aimed at just females - although they are a significant chunk of the YA pie. But yeah, Women and Teens literature shouldn't be dismissed, and they can be just as interested in superhero fiction catered to them as we men are.

It helps that I've actually started reading some YA books. Mostly the Lois Lane trilogy by Gwenda Bond and the recent Daphne and Velma books.

And yet it's such an underrated market. In the 2010s the YA genre was carried by power fantasies for teenage girls. Tapastic, Webtoon, and other webcomic platforms because they had stories that appealed to a female audience alongside a male one. K-dramas too for the same reason.

For someone not savvy on these webcomic platforms, how are they?

[Vakanai]

They've been trying for a decade now and nothing has stuck really. Babs as Oracle was the heart and soul of the team. To add to what Confuzled said, BOP isn't just a group of female characters working together, it's their history and relationships. I remember during the mid-late aughts, when Marvel was trying to launch their own majority female team and Gail Simone mentioned that the reason why those efforts weren't working but BOP did was because what attracted the audience was the relationship between the characters, not just all these characters standing in the same place.

Well, then they need to figure out how to make these relationships work with Barbara as Batgirl.