DC’s Lack of Female Led Franchises!?

[king81992]

So why does this keep happening?

Because a certain subset of fans dedicate themselves to spreading bad word of mouth rumors and outright refuse to buy when DC does anything with a female or minority character. These so called fans do the same thing with Marvel too, but most of the time Marvel continues the push. DC is too quick to cave in and too slow to make proper decisions when it comes to their characters (minority or otherwise).

[king81992]

Obama is cool like that.



DC could probably get away with it for lesser other characters outside of the Trinity (it would probably piss a lot of people off if they kept relaunching Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman with a new #1 every 2 years). DC has also been expanding their Digital First comics and I don't think it would be a bad idea to have characters like Amethyst have digital series.

Plus Marvel uses DC as a testing ground in a way (and vise-versa). Black Cat was definitely created to combat Cat-Woman (who had recently gotten her solo back), and Captain Marvel to combat Wonder Woman (ironically the character Carol Danvers was sort-of created to be the Wonder Woman for Marvel back in the 70's, in the sense that she was supposed to be a feminist icon. But it didn't go so well.)

But, DC doesn't seem to interested in copying Marvel lately.



Yeah, Marvel is a quite lacking when it comes to female villains. Most of their female villains become heroes (Black Widow, Scarlett Witch, Emma Frost), and since the X-Men (who had a bulk of the villainesses) have pardoned all of their villains, Marvel is really lacking on that front. DC also knows they lead in terms of iconic villains and uses that to their advantage. They literally had that Year of the Villain event not too long ago.



Hmmm, it really only seemed to help Wally West. I think, as someone put it, "Marvel is big on legacy heroes, DC is big on side-kicks." And those sidekicks usually go on to become their own heroes under different code names.

DC did just do Future State, with some legacy characters, similar to what Marvel did in the 90's with the 2099 timeline. The only character that seems to have stuck was Yara Flor, who will be released in a Wonder Girl ongoing this year.

Until about 10-15 years ago, I would have said that DC handled legacy characters better than Marvel. Then things changed, legacy characters got shafted and detailed for whatever reason.

[I'm a Fish]

Until about 10-15 years ago, I would have said that DC handled legacy characters better than Marvel. Then things changed, legacy characters got shafted and detailed for whatever reason.

Dan Didio. He hates legacy characters and tossed them into a blender.

[Zero Hunter]

The Gotham aspect of Birds of Prey is not the problem. The problem is taking away Oracle. They have tried to push Black Canary as the one irreplaceable member of the team but that person was, and will always be, Oracle. BOP was incomparable because it was the legacy of a heroine, who people had dismissed as broken and as a tragic victim, persevering and coming into her own while making sure other women heroes don't suffer the same fate as her. Taking away Oracle robs the franchise of all that pathos, even when Barbara Gordon is still a member of the team as Batgirl.

Oracle is the heart of the team. Oracle has always been the best version of Barbra Gordon anyway. To me without the trinity of Oracle, Black Canary, and Huntress at it's core it doesn't matter who else is one the team it just doesn't work. Them making Barbra Batgirl again was such a massive mistake and it cost them one of their best properties for nostalgias sake.

[Zero Hunter]

Dan Didio. He hates legacy characters and tossed them into a blender.

The real reason is Didio wanted to replace all the old legacy characters with new ones created under his watch. Maybe it was an ego thing or maybe he was hoping to cash in on come movie or tv money latter one but he definetly wanted HIS legacy characters to be the only ones around. Under his tenure as boss pretty much every legacy character was replaced with a shinning new knock off version.

[CosmiComic]

Obama is cool like that.



DC could probably get away with it for lesser other characters outside of the Trinity (it would probably piss a lot of people off if they kept relaunching Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman with a new #1 every 2 years). DC has also been expanding their Digital First comics and I don't think it would be a bad idea to have characters like Amethyst have digital series.

Plus Marvel uses DC as a testing ground in a way (and vise-versa). Black Cat was definitely created to combat Cat-Woman (who had recently gotten her solo back), and Captain Marvel to combat Wonder Woman (ironically the character Carol Danvers was sort-of created to be the Wonder Woman for Marvel back in the 70's, in the sense that she was supposed to be a feminist icon. But it didn't go so well.)

But, DC doesn't seem to interested in copying Marvel lately.

I always thought Carol was more of a superman-type character.

Yeah, Marvel is a quite lacking when it comes to female villains. Most of their female villains become heroes (Black Widow, Scarlett Witch, Emma Frost), and since the X-Men (who had a bulk of the villainesses) have pardoned all of their villains, Marvel is really lacking on that front. DC also knows they lead in terms of iconic villains and uses that to their advantage. They literally had that Year of the Villain event not too long ago.

I was more saying DC is more interested in developing villainesses and pretending they're heroines, rather than actually developing heroines. But your point is right too

Hmmm, it really only seemed to help Wally West. I think, as someone put it, "Marvel is big on legacy heroes, DC is big on side-kicks." And those sidekicks usually go on to become their own heroes under different code names.

DC did just do Future State, with some legacy characters, similar to what Marvel did in the 90's with the 2099 timeline. The only character that seems to have stuck was Yara Flor, who will be released in a Wonder Girl ongoing this year.

Does Wally even count? IMO he's more of a Robin than a Batgirl, if that makes sense

[CosmiComic]

Because a certain subset of fans dedicate themselves to spreading bad word of mouth rumors and outright refuse to buy when DC does anything with a female or minority character. These so called fans do the same thing with Marvel too, but most of the time Marvel continues the push. DC is too quick to cave in and too slow to make proper decisions when it comes to their characters (minority or otherwise).

Maybe DC needs to be tougher about it.

[I'm a Fish]

I always thought Carol was more of a superman-type character.

The previous Captain Marvel, Mar-Vel was in some ways, but Carol was more supposed to draw the Wonder Woman crowd. They certainly made her more Superman like in recent years, however.

I was more saying DC is more interested in developing villainesses and pretending they're heroines, rather than actually developing heroines. But your point is right too.

DC does whatever sells. Perhaps its more telling that the villainesses are selling better. I do think their heroines would sell well too (and many do), and certain female heroes have never been given the chance.

Does Wally even count? IMO he's more of a Robin than a Batgirl, if that makes sense

Wally counts (to me) because he took the name Flash and had it for so long. For an entire generation, he is the Flash, just like how for an entire generation Barry is the Flash after Jay Garrick.

In the case of Dick Grayson, he's not anybody's Batman, but he was also only given the title very briefly so perhaps if DC committed that would be different.

[CosmiComic]

The previous Captain Marvel, Mar-Vel was in some ways, but Carol was more supposed to draw the Wonder Woman crowd. They certainly made her more Superman like in recent years, however.



DC does whatever sells. Perhaps its more telling that the villainesses are selling better. I do think their heroines would sell well too (and many do), and certain female heroes have never been given the chance.



Wally counts (to me) because he took the name Flash and had it for so long. For an entire generation, he is the Flash, just like how for an entire generation Barry is the Flash after Jay Garrick.

In the case of Dick Grayson, he's not anybody's Batman, but he was also only given the title very briefly so perhaps if DC committed that would be different.

I guess I'm more familiar with Carol since the late 90s, so I've seen more of her Superman phase.

Idk if it's just about sales though. If characters aren't given a chance to succeed despite some low sales, things may never change

I called Wally "Robin" because he came around the same time Barry did, as Dick did with Bruce, rather than Barbara who came many years later. But I guess that's not really the definition of legacy character

[Samm]

Nice but not completely the entire picture when it comes to female-led titles as solos can't consider all-female teams like Birds of Prey and Gotham City Sirens. Just for my curiosity, if you had considered BOP, where wwould it place on this list?

BOP would rank number 5 and GCS would not rank on the list, oddly enough. I don’t count BOP, despite being female led, since it’s a team book and it wouldn’t be fair to compare to a solo outing.

In order for a title to count the female character must have their name on the cover or else it’s just a supporting role to me (ie Hawgirl in Hawkman book, Black Canary in recent Green Arrow books...etc)

[scary harpy]

What kind of logic? Many people gravitate towards bad guys (or gals in this case), hence the most popular ones are developed as morally ambiguous to get more screentime regardless of gender.

Marvel has reformed Emma Frost, Black Cat, Moondragon, and on the male side Punisher, Magneto, Eddie Brock, so does that mean they are doing terribly with heroes all around?

I guess I was mistaken about the number of quality villains at Marvel. Oops.

To be clear, I do not have a problem with reforming villains.

I have a problem with a lack of quality villains.

If there are not quality villains to replace the reformed villains, then writers tend to un-reform villains to fit the needs of their story. This has been done to Poison Ivy too many times. IMHO, this is annoying.

[Aahz]

Hmmm, it really only seemed to help Wally West. I think, as someone put it, "Marvel is big on legacy heroes, DC is big on side-kicks." And those sidekicks usually go on to become their own heroes under different code names.

DC did just do Future State, with some legacy characters, similar to what Marvel did in the 90's with the 2099 timeline. The only character that seems to have stuck was Yara Flor, who will be released in a Wonder Girl ongoing this year.

I think one big problem with DC and legacy characters is that their big franchise already have that many characters that it is pretty hard to add a new one that really connects with the audience.

And if you make a new character a legacy character of a smaller character, who was never really able to carry a book on the long run, chances are the new character will also not be able to so that. Best case scenario is for that character to land on a team book, but apart from the main Justice League most of DCs team books seem to get relaunched with a (at least partly) new lineup of characters every 2-3 years.

[WonderScott]

If I was DC Editorial, I’d be out here pushing these titles:

Vixen - What’s it like being a superhero and supermodel? Join Mari as she explores where pop culture and crime fighting collide in the DCU. Plus, photo shoots are so much fun when Beatriz Bonilla da Costa is also booked!

Zatanna - Follow Zee as she returns to superheroics, creates a coven all her own, and explores her history and the secrets of the Homo Magi.

Onyx - All Onyx Adams wants is some normality in her life. But is that ever possible when you’re one of the most resourceful martial artists in the DCU, ally to the Bat and Arrow families, and, especially, a betrayer to the League of Assassins? Guest starring Katana!

Flamebird - Tired of being overlooked and underestimated, Bette Kane decides it’s time to get out from under all the shadows of the Bats. She’s in a new town, with a new attitude, and has something to prove... to herself! But will she have time to do it when some of the locals decide a new superhero isn’t what’s needed in their city. And in a backup tale: The Final Fate of Hawkfire!

Villainy Inc - It’s induction day! Learn which supervillain is about to join their ranks and learn the secret history of Villainy Inc.

[lgcruz]

DC in particular has problems delivering an actual complete story, let alone trying to introduce a completely new character. The main reason is due to complacent or non existent editors who allow creators to run unchecked (so you are left with obvious continuity errors and a nonsensical history), won´t stand up against editorial against events that do irreparable damage to intended plotlines and make the overall story impossible to follow, among many other things. And I don´t think fans are helping if their measure of success is by measuring the number of issues or appearances of a given character rather than the stories they were part of.

But the end result is that it leaves readers distrustful that dc will actually follow up on any new character, or worse, assume it is somebody´s pet project meant to replace established heroes. I don´t think there is a conspiracy specifically against female heroes simply because there are plenty of male heroes who didn´t get any chance to show what they are about.

By this point the only ones that could fix this would be publishing, however this would require them to make decisions (like limiting batman related content to strictly 4 books, spread the rest of them among all other properties, keep a regular 3 or 4 books about new or unknown heroes that would be limited in length but ready to be extended in case they proved successful, etc) that would be beneficial long term but harmful short-term, which is a big risk in business. Even publishing realizing they have cornered themselves into a pretty small market and need to diversify would be rather helpful.

As it is now the best hope for dc females taking a lead is in mediums outside of comics like cartoons (dc super hero girls), ya novels (primer), movies (wonder woman), live action tv (stargirl), etc. And from that perspective they seem to actually be doing much better than people give them credit for. Perhaps the thing they are really lacking is a female led dc videogame...

[John Venus]

DC arguably has a better roster of female charactesr than Marvel. Most of Marvel heroines are female versions of male heroes or they are inextricably tied to team books. However, Marvel does a better job of promoting their characters, putting them on the map and getting people interested in their characters. I saw someone on another site point out that Marvel makes a big deal out of their female characters while DC is often hung up on acting like their female characters aren't all that. There is no sufficient reason beyond nostalgia for Black Canary to permanently be Green Arrow's love interest or Zatanna being mostly Constantine's ex, Vixen to not have a solo ongoing with all the promotion and fan fare that DC can muster or Kimiyo Hoshi to not be getting any kind of push or Power Girl not being adapted for so long but here we are.